your opinion on a manditory 2 year degree for paramedic

[Lone Star]

I didn't realize that there were these 'medic mills' out there. Yeah, I can see where that much information crammed into your skull in 90 days would make a 'cook book medic'.

I've been looking into a hospital based course that would take between 14-18 months to complete.

Unlike the AAS medic, I wouldn't have all the 'extra' courses (prerequisites) to get in the way of concentrating on the sole reason I was in that class. To become a COMPETENT medic.

[DwayneEMTP]

Which means that they both have to have the same knowledge base to draw from.....

Because they passed the same test?

So if an M.D. and a basic can both pass the NR basic exam, they are both working from the same knowledge base? How the heck does that work?

Or do you simply believe that he NR tests for all relevent information? So that the M.D. doesn't bring any additional 'relevent' knowledge to the table?

Sorry LS, I got lost here maybe.

Dwayne

[flight-lp]

I didn't realize that there were these 'medic mills' out there. Yeah, I can see where that much information crammed into your skull in 90 days would make a 'cook book medic'.

I've been looking into a hospital based course that would take between 14-18 months to complete.

Unlike the AAS medic, I wouldn't have all the 'extra' courses (prerequisites) to get in the way of concentrating on the sole reason I was in that class. To become a COMPETENT medic.

So you do not believe that courses such as A&P, Microbiology, Sociology, Psychology, and English Composition are not relevant? Sure a decent medic program can produce a COMPETENT medic, but a well rounded academic education will help produce a PROFICIENT medic. There is a big difference. Why focus on minimums when you can take charge of your own future? Think about it.........................................

[BushyFromOz]

[web:334b59c7a6]http://jephc.com/uploads/Waxman990213WebVersion1.pdf[/web:334b59c7a6]

[Lone Star]

So you do not believe that courses such as A&P, Microbiology, Sociology, Psychology, and English Composition are not relevant? Sure a decent medic program can produce a COMPETENT medic, but a well rounded academic education will help produce a PROFICIENT medic. There is a big difference. Why focus on minimums when you can take charge of your own future? Think about it.........................................

What I said was that neither the patient, nor the situation that the collegiate medic finds themselves in really cares whether you end a sentence on your PCR with a preposition, nor does a minor in Liberal Arts apply to the field of paramedicine.

The doctors, nor the patients family really care whether you've studied political science or have read the entire collection of Longfellow, and can discuss them in depth.

Because they passed the same test?

So if an M.D. and a basic can both pass the NR basic exam, they are both working from the same knowledge base? How the heck does that work?

Or do you simply believe that he NR tests for all relevent information? So that the M.D. doesn't bring any additional 'relevent' knowledge to the table?

Sorry LS, I got lost here maybe.

Dwayne

I'm saying that the cirriculum of paramedicine is the same; (not including all the 'prerequisite classes and extraneous bullshit classes that people take for the 'easy credits')

.

Those that apply directly to the field of paramedicine, will be the same in both educational environments.

They're not teaching the collegiate medic any 'secret stuff' only available through a college classroom.

That being said, the same requirements set forth by the state must be met in both classrooms.

The national Registry only sets uniform standards between the states that recognize the NR training standards. These standards are set down, so that licensing reciprosity is easier, and the states that require the NR standards testing more readily recognize the credentials of those EMS personnel that have been educated in other states.

I realize that the NR standards are not the 'end all' of training, nor are they the 'golden rules', these are set forth by the individual states.

[JakeEMTP]

Lonestar,

With all due respect, you can't possibly believe that a part-time paramedic course and a full-time AAS paramedic program offer the same education. Yes, the objectives are the same. However, the full-time degree programme offers a more thorough, in-depth study of the same material.

I have seen this and know it to be true. There is a part-time programme running at the same time as ours. We do clinical time at the hospital at the same time also. Although the part-time students are knowledgeable, their understanding of what's going on with the patient isn't quite the same for the most part. As always, there are exceptions to the rule. They all will be good medics. I'm not knocking them and take my hat off too anyone who progresses to the medic level. Not everyone is in a position to take a full-time class.

As far as NR goes, they do not set standards. the EMT cirriculum is set by the DOT for some unknown reason. It should be the DOH but I digress. NR is nothing more than a test. You still have to apply for a State license after passing NR.

[Lone Star]

As far as NR goes, they do not set standards. the EMT cirriculum is set by the DOT for some unknown reason. It should be the DOH but I digress. NR is nothing more than a test. You still have to apply for a State license after passing NR.

What I said was, is that the National Registry is a set of standards that all participating states agree on must be met in order to license in their state. I realize that EMT standards are set by DOT, and then by each individual state.

It was not until 1965 that the direction of EMS throughout the United States had the potential to improve. A publication of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) titled “Accidental Death and Disability: the Neglected Diseases of Modern Society.” was released and began to receive attention. That paper reported that in 1965, 52 million accidental injuries killed 107,000 Americans, temporarily disabled more than 10 million and permanently impaired 400,000 more at a cost of approximately $18 billion. Accidental injury is “the neglected epidemic of modern society” and “the nation’s most important environmental health problem,” the paper concluded.

The NAS recommended several solutions, including the establishment of standards for ambulance design and construction, emergency medical equipment and supplies, and training and supervision of ambulance personnel. Congress responded to the NAS paper by enacting the National Highway Safety Act of 1966, which mandated the newly formed Department of Transportation (DOT) to establish minimum standards for the provision of care for accident victims. It also empowered DOT to penalize states up to 10% of their federal highway funds if they did not comply with the standards.

http://www.wisconsinems.com/history.htm

As I said in an earlier post, while there are differences in things like time spent on topic, atmosphere, etc.....the end results are the same....they must pass the state exams, or they cannot go forth and practice.

Just because someone sits their behind in a classroom on a college campus, doesn't insure that they are getting more of an education than the non collegiate medic who is in a classroom on a hospital campus.

In both environments you'll get your good students, you'll have your class clowns and you'll get those that should just walk away and never return.

If one were to actually sit down and start trimming down a college degree of all its 'extras' and unnecessary classes.....just how different would the class structure REALLY be?

And as far as the 'well rounded medic' comes from colleges......consider this:

If it takes a college education to make a person 'well rounded' or 'well read' or any of the other 'wells' that are considered in good breeding; then maybe that person needs to GET A LIFE!

Being 'well rounded' means that you have experienced alot of different things that life is about.

Look back to your school chums, and you'll see what I mean.

- The 'eggheads' only were into text books.....they didn't ride bikes, play sports etc.....

- The 'stoners' were just that..too stoned to do ANYTHING

- The 'jocks' lived, breathed, and ate sports; hoping for that sports scolarship and a ticket to the pro's. (none of which happened, so he's now sellling used cars because he didnt pay attention in class)

Well, these are some of MY thoughts, but I'd better shut up now, before someone accuses me of trying to turn this into a blog entry!

[Ridryder 911]

Geez.. another person attempting to "justify" the difference between short cuts and promote cook book medicine. Before you cut and paste the history of the " White Papers, you might want to read a little more than what is posted on a internet site. (You see, this college boy did a thesis on this... yep, one of the differences). One of the purposes or reason the white papers was performed during the LBJ administration, was more people were dying in U.S. from trauma than in the Vietnam war at the time. It was never intended for a ambulance attendant to be trained more than at a first aid level. Rather, its intention was to place physicians/surgeons to ride with ambulance crews, similar to other countries. Undertanding, that this was a unrealistic endeavor more training was developed.

Remember at this time Vietnam was beginning and training medics was being considered to help out. If you actually read the " White Papers, you will find that the wording Emergency Medical Services (which some reported as a fluke) was number 46, after bridge railing, seat belts, etc..

Again, education is also knowing your professions history.

As well, you described... " the National Registry is a set of standards that all participating states agree on must be met in order to license in their state" .. which is as well false. NREMT does NOT, and has NOT ever licensed anyone.

I still cannot understand why anyone would want to have the Paramedic compared to a LVN or LPN level (having a non-college level, 10-12 month trade school program). Both does not require reading levels above the 10'th grade, both usually uses only one text book or series, does not go into detail, no prerequisites or adjunct studies. Even a beautician in your state requires more training than the Paramedic level. Both are considered trained NOT educated since there are no degree requirement or studies to supplement professional standards. Thus the non-degree Paramedic should be compared as the same or equal to a LVN/LPN and should be paid in comparrision as well. (Yes, this is how one differentiates professional standing versus non-professional). This is one of the reason Texas has attempted to differentiate Licensed versus certified.

In comparison to your analogy of school chums, I have not seen any of these "types" since high school. Sorry, I out grew that type of "friends" when I was a kid. I went to college and university to pursue a career and profession, to be a leader and to perform and understand emergency care, to the highest standards which can only be taught at a higher education institution. Remember, one is judged upon their profession credentials for reimbursement, pay structure, and growth.

Again, you much prefer to have our profession to be compared to "blue collar" technical trade persons. One of the few medical professions that does not require a degree (at least an associate).

You realize that the only way to promote the profession is by education. We have seen it in all the other medical profession.

R/r 911

[firemedic]

Like it or not, the first step toward licensure is education, and if we as medics ever want the respect that we deserve by many (not all!) health care providers, we are going to have to be licensed. I may not necessarily agree with that, but I do think the minimum educational requirement for a medic should be an associate's degree.

[Dustdevil]

...I do think the minimum educational requirement for a medic should be an associate's degree.

Me too!

With a BLS scope of practice!