Calgary EMS administers Morphine to dying Police dog

[TDP]

bylaw officers beat up crackheads trying to squeegy windows in calgary thats about it....

[Anna_09]

Wow...that story was touching. You do have to do whats in the best interest of the patient, and I'm sure he cared more about the dog than he did himself. I honestly think the paramedics did the right thing.

My first call actually involved an animal also. It was a one car rollover, and two dogs were in the back. One was okay, but the other one was pinned. The owner refused to leave the dogs' side to get treated until it was out. Thankfully, the dog was unharmed, but he did bite one of our EMT's. Besides that...the patient was also fine. I find it touching that in this world, there ARE still people who care.

[DwayneEMTP]

I'd be curious to know how long it took to track down the vet that gave them advice on the morphine dosage, and I'm a little bit surprised that nearly everyone here is so gushy with praise without more information.

Would you still feel they did the appropriate thing if it took 30 minutes to find a vet to consult? How about if the time they spent tracking down the vet led to additional morbidity in the damaged fingers? Or perhaps other limbs secondary to the bite wounds?

I'm not faulting them for dosing the dog to get the patient to agree to treatment, and not pretending I wouldn't likely have dumped "some dose" of narcs to knock the dog down so I could continue to do my job, but to me it's important how much time they spent fussing over the dog when treating humans is their moral and ethical responsibility.

And I have serious issues with those that claim that "Animals deserve the same care that humans do!" Bullshit. If my son and the neighbors dog get hit by the same car you had better not have any trouble figuring out who needs treatment first, nor who has the greatest right to that treatment. Humans are humans, dogs are dogs.

At some point people started the "He's a canine officer" bullshit, believing the hype the same way most have come to believe that all firemen are heros. The dog is as much an officer as his gun or nightstick. He's not acting with 'honor', he uses no discretion, he's not risking his life to save yours, he's fulfilling his biological programming, following reinforced opperant behavior.

God bless the animals. But if he's keeping my patient from accepting treatment then I'm going to dump some morphine on him to mitigate his suffering, but I'm not going to spend any time looking for a vet. If my dose is good...Awesome. If not, then my patient can be pissed at me from his recovery bed. Either way, my responsibility is to my human patients mortality and morbidity, not to try to gather press Kudos for "loving the lesser creatures."

And the last thing we need is a bunch more of those untrained "Pet ambulances" screaming over the roads lights and sirens. Again, not because I believe animals have no value, but simply because I believe that they don't have enough value to risk my family's safety by running lights and sirens to save your pet.

And for those that don't know me, I've spend over 20 years as an animal behaviorist. Ive trained police dogs, prison dogs, SARs dogs, personal aid dogs, amongst thousands of others. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone that respects animals more than I do. I just simply refuse to confuse them with humans.

I don't believe discipline for these men is necessary, assuming they didn't take an unreasonable amount of time contacting a vet, but I also don't believe that solving this simple problem calles for national/international recognition. Solving problems is what we do, right?

Dwayne

[spenac]

I'm not a vet. If it ain't human I ain't working on it. If the idiot human owner refuses my care unless I treat the animal, let them sign the refusal of care. They made the educated decision to choose animal life as more valuable than their own and can live/die with their choice.

[Dustdevil]

Seems like this scenario raises some questions that may need to be addressed for the future:

1. Should EMS have a completely hands-off policy (read: regulation) regarding animal care?

2. If there is no official hands-off directive applying to EMS, is that not prima facie approval?

3. If animal care is not prohibited, and is to be considered a possibility, should this not be addressed by the veterinary community, with education and protocols?

4. Should not any law enforcement agency with a K9 programme have this formally worked out between their veterinary advisors and the EMS agency?

Has anyone here ever been told OFFICIALLY that they cannot provide care to animals? Has anyone here every been OFFICIALLY told that they could provide care to animals? Has anyone here ever had any FORMAL training in animal care as part of their EMS training (as opposed to something you sought on your own)? Has anyone here ever been approached by law enforcement about planning for animal care?

Dwayne raises a good point about priorities. We do have to balance our desire and ability to care for animals with our resources. I don't think we will see medics intentionally neglecting patients to care for an animal. However, it is certainly a possibility that we could unintentionally tie up limited resources on animal care when they are critically needed for a human being elsewhere.

EMS has never claimed to be responsible for anything but medical care. On the other hand, the fire service is always mouthing off about their responsibility for care of both life and property safety. I wonder why they haven't started any animal ambulance services yet. They're in a big hurry to save your burning pasture, but take no steps to provide animal care? WTF? Hypocrites!

[celticcare]

The report also states that the patient would not leave his injured dog and the dog was protecting his owner. So of course the paramedics would have ascertained ABC's of the owner and ensured that care was delivered adequatly. I do see it would have been a tricky situation and perhaps not as clear cut as you percieve it or portray it could have been Dwayne.

Oh and Dwayne, thanks for being a real downer on this thread, there are enough threads where people bash others and for once a good feel story comes through, about thinking outside the box and utilising other medical/healthcare/vet resources and just being blunt makes it seem like its not ok to praise these medics for doing so.

You also imply that paramedics *mainly these two* wouldn't take human life over animal life, which I think is just dumb, of course we are going to treat humans over animals, but animals in their own right deserve care etc.

And in regards to the pet ambulances, ours are staffed by Vets here and minimum of vet nurse.

Again, I had enjoyed reading the first three pages of this thread, then came to your post and felt blah. Heck even Dust's post was more constructive and looked at future care policies and protocols. (Except the fire service comments, dust they are actually getting really old and frankly insulting thanks)

Pleased the guys are back on the truck and it sucks that they had to miss out on wages whilst it was "investigated".

Scotty

[Happiness]

Iv been reading this thread on and off for the last while. I found the orginal story very heart warming and thought why would an investigation even be needed. Now to Dawaynes comment.

I do agree that our society has humanized our furry friends. This is why we buy our dogs warm coats and feed them better than ourselves at times. The fact that we have decided not to eat our dogs and critisize those countries that do is another clue to this humanization of our pets. You are right Dawayne a dog is a dog and yes if I had to I would have a chomp.

From what I can gather from what you wrote you are saying that dogs have no feelings and this is where I disagree. Dogs have and will continue to put there lives at risk for their human companions without being trained to do so. I have been around dog training for my whole life and still have very well trained and behaved dogs. My experience goes from sled dogs, bird dogs, show dogs ( and for those of you that think that isn't training getting any male to stand still and have some stranger grab your testies without snapping can be a challange even in the human world) and just basic manners. My methods have been a combination of Koler to The Monks of new skete and everything in between. I personaly think the fact that you trained dogs for various things is great but one thing you have left out in that statement is that you trained them and correct me if im wrong gave those dogs to other handlers to create a relationship with, and that is what people do with their dogs no matter if they are just a pet or tool that they use for their job.

The fact that you critisize the medics for thinking outside of the box is a bit disturbing as not one situation in any part life is the same. Im sure the medics that went to that scene saw a barrier to their patient and did what they need to do and since they couldn't shoot the dog they gave it some meds and they also put some thought into that desicion by asking someone who was qualified to give the proper advise. You also say they spent time fussing to get that information well only on medic has to be on the phone and the other was probably doing his moral and ethical obligation to his human patient remember there are 2 of them. Now if the owner had life threatening injuries I would bet the whole story would be different.

I have to agree with Scotty in the fact that you took a good story and tried to find fault in it. The only reason that I think it was posted was to show that there are people out there that do think outside of the box and do have compassion for people and for what people love. I normally enjoy reading what you post as you are a very intellegent person but sorry Dawayne you need to lighten up on some things and just enjoy the things that are posted to make us smile and remind us that we too are human and should have compassion.

Happiness

[CBEMT]

I'm not a vet. If it ain't human I ain't working on it. If the idiot human owner refuses my care unless I treat the animal, let them sign the refusal of care. They made the educated decision to choose animal life as more valuable than their own and can live/die with their choice.

I don't believe discipline for these men is necessary, assuming they didn't take an unreasonable amount of time contacting a vet, but I also don't believe that solving this simple problem calles for national/international recognition. Solving problems is what we do, right?

Dwayne

Your posts are an example of why, every once in a while, this place drives me up a wall. It's letter of the law or nothing with some of you. You must be a real blast to work with.

If we don't get ourselves some good press, nobody else is going to. I have no problem at all with an attaboy to these guys if it engenders some goodwill to their service and EMS in general.

For the record, insinuating that they neglected their patient to serve the dog would be a personal insult were it my call. That's a pretty big leap to take considering you weren't there.

EMS has never claimed to be responsible for anything but medical care. On the other hand, the fire service is always mouthing off about their responsibility for care of both life and property safety. I wonder why they haven't started any animal ambulance services yet. They're in a big hurry to save your burning pasture, but take no steps to provide animal care? WTF? Hypocrites!

You've never seen a fire department pull a horse or cow out of a mudhole? Dog off of ice/out of water? Happens almost frequently around here.

Edited May 9, 2009 by CBEMT

[Doczilla]

1. Should EMS have a completely hands-off policy (read: regulation) regarding animal care?

If management believes this to be a violation of standards of compassionate care, then yes.

2. If there is no official hands-off directive applying to EMS, is that not prima facie approval?

No, but I agree that it is a shitty agency that would discipline a crew for this if there is no policy prohibiting it.

3. If animal care is not prohibited, and is to be considered a possibility, should this not be addressed by the veterinary community, with education and protocols?

Yes, along with an arrangement to obtain online veterinary medical control at any hour if necessary.

4. Should not any law enforcement agency with a K9 programme have this formally worked out between their veterinary advisors and the EMS agency?

Absolutely. Such an arrangement will decrease confusion on the medics part and allow them to treat the K9 patient without doubt or regret. It also reinforces to the officers that they can count on EMS to provide care to their K9 officers, and this is good for interdepartmental relationships.

Has anyone here ever been told OFFICIALLY that they cannot provide care to animals? Has anyone here every been OFFICIALLY told that they could provide care to animals? Has anyone here ever had any FORMAL training in animal care as part of their EMS training (as opposed to something you sought on your own)? Has anyone here ever been approached by law enforcement about planning for animal care?

Our flight service has a clear policy that they will not care for or transport K9s, including K9 officers. I discussed this with their medical director, and there are practical considerations that led to this policy. I have given direction to our SWAT team medics that they are to treat K9 officers and transport if necessary by any means available. We have done some K9 medicine courses. We have visited our 24 hour emergency veterinary hospitals, and the vets there have said they are available and comfortable providing telephone consultation. Medics who work on teams with K9 resources (including search and rescue teams) should be expected and trained in how to care for them.

Dwayne raises a good point about priorities. We do have to balance our desire and ability to care for animals with our resources. I don't think we will see medics intentionally neglecting patients to care for an animal. However, it is certainly a possibility that we could unintentionally tie up limited resources on animal care when they are critically needed for a human being elsewhere.

There's another practical consideration here. The K9 officer represents a substantial investment in money, time, and training for the department. Add to this the emotional bond between a K9 and his handler, and NOT caring for an injured dog may impair operational effectiveness of the officer, at least temporarily. I don't think that EMS should be called for just any animal suffering a medical emergency. As others have said, that's really not what we do. But I do believe that the working dog is a special exception to this.

'zilla

[DwayneEMTP]

The report also states that the patient would not leave his injured dog and the dog was protecting his owner. So of course the paramedics would have ascertained ABC's of the owner and ensured that care was delivered adequatly. I do see it would have been a tricky situation and perhaps not as clear cut as you percieve it or portray it could have been Dwayne.

I'm not sure that I implied that is was simple, only that we're paid to be problem solvers, or at least I believe I am. I didn't see why it needed to be newsworthy that a paramedic solved a problem.

Oh and Dwayne, thanks for being a real downer on this thread, there are enough threads where people bash others and for once a good feel story comes through, about thinking outside the box and utilising other medical/healthcare/vet resources and just being blunt makes it seem like its not ok to praise these medics for doing so.

This whiney nonsense is the main reason I don't post much any more. There was a time, not far past, when a thread in the EMS Discussion forum couldn't have made it three pages without a single critical comment. Sorry brother, this forum is for discussion so you need to take a check when you're entire post is to complain that I Killed your 'warm fuzzy.'

You also imply that paramedics *mainly these two* wouldn't take human life over animal life,

Please attempt to show where this happened so that everyone can see that you're just making shit up because you can't make a valid point. I specifically said that my feeling on what happens to "these two" would be based on the amount of time they were distracted by the dog. At no point did I even imply that they did anything wrong, I simply criticized those that wanted to praise them based on a bunch of feel good bullshit when there are scenarios where they might possibly have been shown to be very irresponsible if all information was given. I've often liked your posts, but you're off in the ditch this time man.

You want to know when paramedicine has gained at least a modicum of respect? When someone says, "Holy shit! Did you see that? The medic treated that dog and got the patient taken care of in no time!" And the reporter, instead of calling his editor simply replies, "Of course man, that's what they do." As long as the public thinks it's a miracle every time we accomplish an unusual task without calling the fire dept then they are also going to continue to believe that we're idiots.

And in regards to the pet ambulances, ours are staffed by Vets here and minimum of vet nurse.

I don't care who is in them, only whether or not they are allowed to endanger human lives by running lights and sirens to save animals.

Again, I had enjoyed reading the first three pages of this thread...

Good for you, but I don't care what made you feel kind and superior, I care what you know about emergency medicine, and you thus far have nothing to offer us in that regard in this thread.

...then came to your post and felt blah.

Yeah, I get that a lot...

Heck even Dust's post was more constructive and looked at future care policies and protocols.

I think you'll find that Dust's posts will be superior to mine in most ways on nearly every occasion. I suggest you simply skip mine and read his.

(Except the fire service comments, dust they are actually getting really old and frankly insulting thanks)

Whaaaaa. Again, what you seem to miss is that they are also productive. Productive trumps your seemingly delicate feelings. You seem to be having issues understanding that this isn't all about you and your feelings, it's about truth. Truths we know, truths we are trying to find, easy truths, and yeah man, even some truths that you may not like. But we often get some hotshot that gets a few posts and begins to believe that he's so loved by those in the chat room that he should come out and police the forums. Good luck with that.

Thanks for you post Happines, but you also seem to misunderstand me to be claiming that these medics acted poorly. I didn't say that at all, as I think you'll both see if you reread my post, I simply claimed that I was unwilling to applaud them without more information. I, as you, have not one friggin clue what happened on this scene. I was simply asking.."what if?"

Too often now the City seems to be about high fiving each other and being touchy feely instead of being critical and curious, which is how we all learn. It wasn't my intention to offend anyone with my post, only to question one aspect of the article, and to bring into question the comments of some posters that seemed, to me, to equate animal life to human life. I think we could all learn from both lines of thought. If my attempts to learn, and educate sometimes means that we have to try and wring bullshit from a fluff piece in the newspaper? Yeah, I'll take my beatings and choose learning every time.

And Happiness, I almost always enjoy your posts as well, including this one.

Have a good day all.

Dwayne