Medic working on expired license.

[brentoli]

But was that medic working under the grace period or working under a truly expired license?

I think that this is the gray area we are looking at right now.

I agree Ruff. I belive that is a question that should be answered by the state first. That isn't exactly the clearest worded paragraph.

I also get the feeling there may be more to the story. Why did the OP quit? My personal opinion... if it was that big of an issue report it, deal with the ramifications at work. Document everything you do, and if it becomes a hositle work enviroment due to your report you may have a civl, or wage & labor claim. To me it seems silly to give up your income stream over this. Thats why I think there is more to the story than what we have been told.

[Jeepluv77]

The fact that the company said to shut up or leave tells me that he is out the grace period and they just don't want to lose the medic. But isn't the point to renewal to make sure that you are current on all the latest guidelines? What happens if he's not and makes a mistake that's detrimental to the patient? Not only could he go down, but so could his partner, any other workers on the call, and the company. Not to mention the what the patient, or their family if he actually kills someone, would go through. Now, I know that it probably wouldn't happen that way. But what if he just makes a human error that wouldn't have been changed by being up to date? Same fallout. Also, what makes this guy so special that he isn't held to the same standards as everyone else? I'm a newbie and haven't had to renew, but I'll bet that when I do I could come up with things I'd rather be doing than taking a refresher course on stuff I already know. We have a responsibility to our co-workers and patients to do it though so you better believe I'll be there taking notes. And I'm pretty sure I could find something else I'd rather spend that money on, but again it's my responsibility.

Plain and simple, my question wouldn't have been "should I turn him in?" but rather "where do I go to report him?"

[VentMedic]

Michigan is a little different than other states for their expiration date.

4) A license or registration shall be renewed by the licensee on or before the expiration date as prescribed by rule. The department shall mail a notice to the licensee at the last known address on file with the department advising of the time, procedure, and fee for renewal. Failure of the licensee to receive notice under this subsection does not relieve the licensee of the responsibility for renewing his or her license. A license not renewed by the expiration date may be renewed within 60 days of the expiration date upon application, payment of renewal and late renewal fees, and fulfillment of any continued continuing education requirements set forth in rules promulgated under this article. The licensee may continue to practice and use the title during the 60-day period. If a license is not so renewed within 60 days of the expiration date, the license is void. The licensee shall not practice or use the title. An individual may be relicensed within 3 years of the expiration date upon application, payment of the application processing, renewal, and late renewal fees, and fulfillment of any continuing education requirements in effect at the time of the expiration date, or that would have been required had the individual renewed his or her license pursuant to subsection (1). An individual may be relicensed more than 3 years after the expiration date upon application as a new applicant, meeting all licensure requirements in effect at the time of application, taking or retaking and passing any examinations required for initial licensure, and payment of fees required of new applicants.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(es0cwl45t...e=mcl-333-20954

[AnthonyM83]

Well that settles that part.

For those who said it would be criminal not to report it, you better have a legal statute or code that backs that supports your statements (if what the license were completely expired/lapsed past 60 days). Generally, knowledge of a crime through the grapevine isn't conspiracy. The state would have to have a specific law forcing others to report their coworkers.

[fireflymedic]

Well, I've never worked in michigan, nor held a michigan license. However, here the law is very clear about what is permissable and what is not. They say if you do not have an active license by midnight day of certification expiration, you can not work. There are no extensions granted, no exceptions. There have been issues with some people trusting their training officers to turn in their certifications and maintain them and well, there has been more than once where certifications were dashed in on the last day the office was open in a depserate attempt to get them processed. I do recall one service having 13 employees which were off duty at midnight and continued that way until the 10th of January when their license expired the 31st of Dec (offices were closed from the 18th of Dec to the 6th of Jan for the holiday). They trusted their training officer to turn it in, and he didn't and they were without work until they got a new license (licenses required to be postmarked by 31st to be valid, but can't operate past that date if no cert in hand). Here you can be charged with practicing medicine without a license criminally in addition to the actions of the disciplinary board.

If the situation truly is as the OP says I would agree with him - I wouldn't be working for that service. Anyone that is willing to risk patient safety and skirt the requirements of the state is questionable and that is exactly what is happening IF things are as he said they are. Though, there are two sides to every story. I would have walked away as well - there are plenty of other places to work that are decent - don't waste your career on a place that might you your cert taken. I'm not sure if michigan permits anonymous complaints (I know you can't here), but anyone can fill out a complaint form with the info from a citizen to a person on the service and send it to the disciplinary board. It then goes to an investigator who interviews all parties involved, gets the story and it's presented to a preliminary inquiry board who decide whether there is enough evidence that something detrimental was committed - if so, then a complaint is filed with the attorney general and the legal counsel and the person has two options. They may either accept a proposed agreement (with wrongdoing always admitted and publicly posted - may be anything from a private letter of reprimand to revocation of license) or go before the board and fight it (with the typical result if they lose of suspension or revocation of license). It may then be referred for criminal action if applicable and decided upon by the board. I would definitely send it in to be investigated and let the board handle it from there. It's their ball game and worst case scenario, he's investigated, found to be okay no harm done, but if there is wrongdoing, then tough stuff for him and you've protected future patients.

[fiznat]

Thank you for posting that ventmedic. That is what I suspected based on reading that other little synopsis.

The fact that the company said to shut up or leave tells me that he is out the grace period and they just don't want to lose the medic.

Ahhh sorta. Granted the company sounds like they are being rude to you based on your account of the conversation, but what I'm thinking is you probably pissed them off a little bit by accusing them of breaking the law to serve their own interests. In addition, it doesn't seem you were exactly crystal clear on the letter of the law considering that ventmedic just posted the actual statute that contradicts your original point (that you can't work inside the grace period). The fact of the matter is you don't even know for sure whether this medic was illegible to work or not. How far do you really want to take this?

Not that it is completely relevant here, but I think you are also incorrect in your point that (re)licensure ensures medics are up to date on medical guidelines. In my state, all that (re)licensure means is that you've paid your fee and submitted a 1 page demographic application. Maintenance of clinical competency is the sole responsibility of medical control, which will review the proper documentation annually and (re) grant active medical control letters as they deem fit. I would be surprised if it were different where you are, but here, clinical competency and licensure are not the same thing.

For those that say you have a moral/legal/ethical/professional responsibility to report the company, I would argue that you need to be absolutely sure of the facts before you take that step. At the moment, unless there is more information we don't know, you really can't be sure whether this medic was in the 60 day period or not. I don't agree that any moral responsibility can exist that mandates action on an assumption or incomplete information.

Edited April 15, 2009 by fiznat

[reaper]

Well, I've never worked in michigan, nor held a michigan license. However, here the law is very clear about what is permissable and what is not. They say if you do not have an active license by midnight day of certification expiration, you can not work. There are no extensions granted, no exceptions. There have been issues with some people trusting their training officers to turn in their certifications and maintain them and well, there has been more than once where certifications were dashed in on the last day the office was open in a depserate attempt to get them processed. I do recall one service having 13 employees which were off duty at midnight and continued that way until the 10th of January when their license expired the 31st of Dec (offices were closed from the 18th of Dec to the 6th of Jan for the holiday). They trusted their training officer to turn it in, and he didn't and they were without work until they got a new license (licenses required to be postmarked by 31st to be valid, but can't operate past that date if no cert in hand). Here you can be charged with practicing medicine without a license criminally in addition to the actions of the disciplinary board.

If the situation truly is as the OP says I would agree with him - I wouldn't be working for that service. Anyone that is willing to risk patient safety and skirt the requirements of the state is questionable and that is exactly what is happening IF things are as he said they are. Though, there are two sides to every story. I would have walked away as well - there are plenty of other places to work that are decent - don't waste your career on a place that might you your cert taken. I'm not sure if michigan permits anonymous complaints (I know you can't here), but anyone can fill out a complaint form with the info from a citizen to a person on the service and send it to the disciplinary board. It then goes to an investigator who interviews all parties involved, gets the story and it's presented to a preliminary inquiry board who decide whether there is enough evidence that something detrimental was committed - if so, then a complaint is filed with the attorney general and the legal counsel and the person has two options. They may either accept a proposed agreement (with wrongdoing always admitted and publicly posted - may be anything from a private letter of reprimand to revocation of license) or go before the board and fight it (with the typical result if they lose of suspension or revocation of license). It may then be referred for criminal action if applicable and decided upon by the board. I would definitely send it in to be investigated and let the board handle it from there. It's their ball game and worst case scenario, he's investigated, found to be okay no harm done, but if there is wrongdoing, then tough stuff for him and you've protected future patients.

Did everyone fail reading comprehension in high school? Both Lonestar and Vent Posted the Mich State law on this. You are allowed to work, while in the 60 day grace period. So the person is doing no wrong, yet!

The OP may have been wanting to do the right thing, but they need to know and understand the laws in the state they are working in first!

[brentoli]

And boom goes the dynamite.

and the boss was letting her work thinking she was able to work during a 60 day grace period.

The OP says it was within 60 days.

Michigan says that is ok.

Sorry OP, you lost your job over nothing.

As far as reporting this to the state, you need concrete solid proof that said EMT is working in the scope of an EMT outside the 60 day period with no renewal. When you call the state EMS office and tell them Billy Joe is working outside of his license, their first question will be, "how do you know?" If your answer involves the department rumor mill, your case will promptly be forwarded to the Division of Sanitary Refuse for prompt investigation.

[Eydawn]

don't even know for sure whether this medic was illegible to work or not

sayeth AnthonyM83...

Illegible to work, eh? Don't you mean INELIGIBLE?

Didn't know folks had to be able to read you at your work! Got some nice tattoos?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[VentMedic]

sayeth AnthonyM83...

Illegible to work, eh? Don't you mean INELIGIBLE?

AnthonyM83,

I would blame that one on the spell check. Sometimes it thinks it knows what you mean but gives you similar but wrong choices.