Firing a Volunteer?

[Chief1C]

First, considering Timmy is in Australia, I don't know the laws, protocols, etc.

In Penna., USA.. Paid, or volunteer; you still have all the same codes, protocols, rules, etc. They apply to everyone, for all the same reasons. You still get corruption which screws up the equal balance, but it's basically all the same.

Our organization, which is voluntary fire, EMS, special rescue, and the like has bylaws, and SOP's, like most organizations do. We have written procedures, so things get done the legal way when people have to be dealt with. If he's on disability, I'd restrict him from volunteering. If he can volunteer as an EMT (Ambo responder, w/e), then he can work as one. People on comp, disability, etc., volunteering, puts your whole service at risk for a failure. If what ever insurance company, or govt' agency that is paying him decides he broke the rules, then it will put people against each other, when they have to testify against him. That can tear organizations in half, and generally be bad for the health of the company.

Some people can take the training, and do great; then when it comes to applying those skills to another human, they can't do it. It happens. These people make good 'driver-only' members. Not every run is a balls to the wall emergency, just send him on like transports. You need to sit him down, in a private meeting, lay out the rules and say here's how it has to be. Here's what you have to do; if you will not be a contributing member in good standing, then you will not be a member.

Edited April 17, 2009 by 4cmk6

[Kiwiology]

When I was with the Johnnos we had a big thick manual of SOPs, regs etc .... mind you we were in the same group as the road vollies but still this guy would be in violation of lots of them over here, sounds like you do things differently .... talk to your operations manager mate

Edited April 18, 2009 by kiwimedic

[celticcare]

Heya Timbo, I hear you on these and I think this furthers onto the converation we had one night.

St John internationally has standards of Practice and also maintains a high standard (well aims to) of uniform, dress, hygiene and these are the same across australaisa and derive from Britian.

I used to do the training and maintance programs of the unit I was attached to, and we had two women, one was morbidly obese and had had carpal tunnel syndrome and assosicated surgeries, she could not perform a simple CPR test and took two members to get her back off the floor because of her weight and her knees. I failed her and recomended a non clinical role for her, but because she had been in St John for 30 odd years and was a unit leader *yes a unit leader but of penguins, ya know the ones that are 5-8 years old til they could join youth*. so they let her stay and another was a member who was of large waist status *a current trend in this org* and refused to OPA for airway reval and did not go with the new standards of resus (30 compressions, compressions before AED and trying to find a way to override the AED* and I wouldnt pass her, but again, 40 years in the instution etc *and a youth unit leader blah blah* she got through,

I had enough and would put hours into trying to get these people into standard and like yourself, tried to bring people into the service (nurses, doctors, students etc) and they took one look and in two sharp words told me what they thought of it.

I left not long after as, like yourself more than likely, the members had an attitude, "you're young what would you know" and then start a war story campaign. I even brought in fitness tests but they weasled out of it. Don't give in like I did. But make sure you have backing from senior members and also the policy team as that was my downfall, the leaders of the unit would bitch and moan about these same members, but would do nothing when I approached and tried to fix it and the team.

In regards to this member, have a look through the founding documents of the original primary care units *as we call them here and first response groups* and checklist where this member does not stand up to standard. Here he wouldnt be allowed his radios and scanners as the frequency is set and non official radios can be used to communicate on those channels.

If he is desperate to be part of it, then create a new role, maybe equipment manager, or other avenues with st john. He sounds like many I have worked with, I have faith in ya though mate, stick to your guns, talk to the state headquarters with request for advice, I will try dig out what I can

Good luck

Scotty

Edited April 18, 2009 by celticcare

[rat115]

Timmy, your post has gotten some excellent responses.

Something that caught my attention on 2nd reading was the combination of your comments about old war stories and the combination of his being over zelous and then freaking out when the littlest thing happens. This sounds like he's trying to keep himself in the game and my have some psych issues. I'm wondering about PTSD. When they're not dealing with the issues, they will not take care of themselves. Hence the constant productive cough and his body oder. Have you, perhaps, seen other earmarks of depression/PTSD in this guy?

Here, the constant productive cough would be enough to force someone onto a time out until it's dealt with. That could possiblly cause a transmission from him to a patient. Until it's known that it's not contagious, we would not allow him on the ambulance. If he's not concerned about himself, I'd be concerned about the patient from a supervisor's point of view.

[Doczilla]

It's usually more difficult to fire an employee than a volunteer, or at least, you're more likely to be sued. It's hard to be sued for firing someone from a job that pays no money, unless the volunteer contends that they have been harassed or a hostile work environment was created, or some lasting disability from their time as a volly. I am also in the US, and I know absolutely nothing of Aussie law. (Since the colony was founded by criminals, maybe it's not so bad..... )

1) Discipline, except for egregious infractions, usually has to be progressive. For repeated violations of policy, disciplinary measures should be increased with each subsequent one. First offense, a written reprimand with verbal counseling. Second, a suspension. Third, termination. Certain infractions can go right to suspension or termination. Any criminal offense committed on duty, for example. Any violent or sexual crime committed at any time is another. Gross insubordination, threatening or harassing a coworker are others.

2) Document the hell out of it. Make sure you document where expectations have been failed and what measures are to be taken to rectify it. Establish a time line for completion of whatever the task is, be it remedial training, improvement of a tangible physical fitness standard, or a counseling regimen.

3) Add testing to continuing education (which should be done anyway). If you can't pass, you gotta go through again before you get the hours.

4) Basic hygiene should be a company policy. Grooming and bathing standards should be clear. Make this a written policy.

5) Any incident of non-performance of duty must be documented. If he freaks out on every call, then this should not be difficult to establish a pattern. He must be immediately counseled, and this documented.

6) You may mandate him to see the counselor through your agency's Employee Assistance Program as well. He may claim mental disability from his years of emergency medical care, and you may just have to deal with that through whatever disability compensation system you have.

7) In the US, some states and municipalities have specific requirements on what steps must be taken to release a volunteer ambulance attendant or volunteer firefighter from service. Research this in your area.

8) Simulation based or scenario based testing is another way to show competence.

9) The medical director may pull an employee's right to practice, and there is usually little recourse (an appeals process usually involves other physicians not connected with the organization). This should be done only in cases where medical care has suffered, and will usually only result in termination of privileges for repeated gross violations of the standard of care. Do not use the MD as a blunt instrument to get rid of a problem employee because you're too chickenshit to fire them yourself. Remember also that in most systems, the MD cannot "fire" them, i.e., terminate their employment, but can simply limit their right to practice in that system.

Do NOT allow a problem employee to continue to work simply because you are afraid of litigation. That said, it sometimes takes some time to get all your ducks in a row to make sure that the employee, and the agency's, rights are protected.

This chucklehead is a clown, and you should probably get rid of him. The best way for you to ensure that all is done correctly is to consult a lawyer. Many municipalities have an arrangement with their prosecutor's office to look this stuff over. Otherwise, go through your usual counsel.

'zilla

[Timmy]

Thanks for your responses everyone! Some great reading it is, indeed.

In conjunction with the ‘powers at be’ were going to work on a fitness and clinical competency, his dismissal would be no great loss to the service and I thank you once again for your assistance.

[RFDMedic3D]

Tim,

I'm a bit confused. In your original post, you state that he attends, or should I say, appears at station, for training courses, but does not participate in the training, and when he does he is disruptive. I also believe you stated he "passes the training because he's a volunteer." I hope that doesn't mean he is given a passing grade due to his volunteer status! This is EMERGENCY MEDICINE we are talking about. If he is not truely qualified, he should not be given a pass because he's a volunteer. Volunteer or paid status should not be a consideration when talking training. If you can't get management to understand that, ask them if they'd let him work on them or their family.

Institute mandatory training levels and if he does not complete the classes successfully, he doesn't get the qualification.

If he's not qualified he can't run on the units. Problem solved.

[firedoc5]

I might have missed something somewhere, but, has there complaints from the public? If it's been more than, let's just say three, tell him that he's on "double secret probation" and one more complaint is grounds for dismissal. IMHO, three public complaints and /or five complaints from co-workers or other professionals would do the trick And DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT.

[Emtgirl101]

set up a meeting have a vote and majority rules,

[akroeze]

set up a meeting have a vote and majority rules,

Generally not a good idea to let the mob make decisions