Affirmative Action Stupidity

[Lone Star]

Hm. Guess my attempt to offer up explanations that take into account cultural and racial differences and education weren't INTERESTING enough to warrant comment.

This is why this cycle will NEVER END... people don't care about addressing the actual problem...

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Sorry Wendy but I think the opportunity for open discourse was lost pages ago. Too many axes to grind on both sides pulled this off track.

Unfortunately, crotchity is too busy spouting rhetoric and excuses to actually address relevant views and pertinent information for meaningful dialogue. It's far easier to sit back and lament that he's being 'kept down', rather than roll up his sleeves and do his part to break the cycle, by taking responsibility for his own actions.

[Upton4785]

I know I'm gonna get some hate thrown my way for this...

It makes no sense to claim that African Americans are doing poorly in today's society because their ancestors were enslaved and they weren't allowed to attend formal schools until the 1950's. Go into any school at any level (elementary, middle/junior high, high school, or college) and see what the requirements are to attend. Aside from college, you really just need a pulse and a pencil, and the desire to learn. If someone doesn't take full advantage of the educational system that has been in place and open to all races for the past 50 years, then there is no one to blame but themselves. If you're poor, there's government systems in place to help you pay. If you have a learning disability, there's dedicated teachers and faculties willing to put in endless hours to help you understand. Hell, with a little effort, ANYONE of ANY color can attend college for free, courtesy of the government! The only thing you have to put in is effort.

That being said, I have no pity for anyone, regardless of color, who couldn't pass the test they had ample (and EQUAL) time to study for. You shouldn't be given what you personally haven't earned. If you make poor choices, the blame lands squarely on your shoulders, no matter what race you are. Besides, it'd be damn hard to earn respect from your colleagues when the only reason you were able to advance yourself is because you had it all handed to you. And yes, respect has to be EARNED. Affirmative action can't bend that.

When an injustice truly occurs, it should be immediately rectified, but only when it is a true injustice. Being denied a promotion because of skin color is an injustice. Being denied a promotion because you don't have the knowledge required for the position is not.

Keep in mind, when I say "you" in any form in this entry, I am not pointing the finger at a certain race. I know that word gets a lot of people in trouble. Again, "you" in any form of the word, implies the reader, not a specific racial group.

[afib]

i think i smell laziness, someone wants a cushy job without having to work for the title..........ahh ahhhhhh ahhhhhhhbul@!#$ excuse me i seems to have and allergy to bs!

my .02 cents worth

[celticcare]

*hands A-fib a tissue*

I think we all have that allergy too A-fib

You dont study, you dont get the results, you don't work, you don't get the money or chance for promotion. Black, white, hispanic, latino, maori, islander, aussie anyone, you don't put in the yards, you don't get the reward.

The firefighters didn't study but because they have a darker complexion than us, they feel they should get the privledge? Sorry I don't buy that.

Refering back to Chris rock, there is another audio file that would beautifuly sum up the two classes of black people, listen to black people vs N**** (sorry I am not trying to incite a riot using that word, its the actual title of the audio file). It's a audio file saying how there are good black people out there working, some with two jobs raising their families and pushing their kids in school while the other blacks *the N word as he refers to them as* are happy to claim slavery and oppression instead of getting off their ass. Whilst yes Chris does get paid big money to make people laugh and be outlandish, I think this is the best part that sums up the difference between hard working black people and the ones that want to claim welfare and cry for attention.

Scotty

[JPINFV]

The best comedy aren't jokes. They're simple observation on the state of humanity.

[crotchitymedic1986]

every race has its lazy side, just watch jerry springer or cops to see the white ni**ers. And you may think that i am making excuses, or being lazy, but I would claim that most whites are being arrogant and are in denial if they think that slavery does not dumb down a race, that is it dumbs down the ones you didnt kill. But if I remember right, I believe whites will become the minority in the US in the year 2030, we will see how you feel when the shoe is on the other foot.

So education is genetic? I didn't realize that my study habits were part of my DNA. How does the fact that black slaves weren't given an education affect how black New Haven firefighters applied themselves for a promotional test in the 21st century?

Yes, education is somewhat genetic, in that your level of education is usually driven by your parents. If you have two college educated parents who are home to help you with your homework, and demand that you keep an A-B average, then you will probably find a smart student (most asians). But if you are the child of a single mom, who was a high school drop-out, does not value education, and is not there at night to hold you accountable, you will probably not be in top tier of your class. Sure there are a handful that always break the rule, but for the most part, what i have said is true. And if you dont understand how 300 years of discrimination hurts a race of people, then there is nothing i can say to change your mind.

Edited April 29, 2009 by crotchitymedic1986

[ERDoc]

Yes, education is somewhat genetic, in that your level of education is usually driven by your parents. If you have two college educated parents who are home to help you with your homework, and demand that you keep an A-B average, then you will probably find a smart student (most asians). But if you are the child of a single mom, who was a high school drop-out, does not value education, and is not there at night to hold you accountable, you will probably not be in top tier of your class. Sure there are a handful that always break the rule, but for the most part, what i have said is true. And if you dont understand how 300 years of discrimination hurts a race of people, then there is nothing i can say to change your mind.

I cannot believe I am getting involved in this thread but here goes. Crotchity, you need to look up the definition of genetics. What you describe is exactly the OPPOSITE of genetics. Google nature vs nurture. You have given a great arguement for nurture, which completely negates your arguement. As abhorent as I find slavery, it is time to get over it. 300 years of slavery does not have any affect on on the tens of thousands of years of evolution that has led to our developed intelligence. To blame something that happened several hundred years ago for the current situation is just assinine. Have there been barriers to people of any race improving their education/position in live in the past? Absolutely. Is this excuse valid in today's world? Absolutely not. There are no excuses for not being able to pursue a college education with all of the resources available today (state colleges, financial aid, student loans, scholarships, etc). The only reason someone cannot advance today is because the chose not to or because the decisions they have made prevent them from doing it.

[WolfmanHarris]

Yes, education is somewhat genetic, in that your level of education is usually driven by your parents. If you have two college educated parents who are home to help you with your homework, and demand that you keep an A-B average, then you will probably find a smart student (most asians). But if you are the child of a single mom, who was a high school drop-out, does not value education, and is not there at night to hold you accountable, you will probably not be in top tier of your class. Sure there are a handful that always break the rule, but for the most part, what i have said is true. And if you dont understand how 300 years of discrimination hurts a race of people, then there is nothing i can say to change your mind.

Crotch, you're not arguing for race as a basis for success, but social and economic standing during upbringing being the main predictor of success. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. In fact my initial question/assertion was whether we'd find a closer parallel in test results between people of similar economic and family backgrounds than we would on race.

I have six years of post-secondary education. Neither of my parents attended college or university. My mom didn't finish High School. My parents divorced when I was young and I was raised by a single Dad. Both my parents are now entrepreneurs making greater than $200K/yr but I still stand on my own without them paying my way. Aside from my aboriginal roots on my mom's side (which I have no contact with due to her estranged father), my family's white. But that's not the point. The point is we can take a story like this or one like any other member here has a find people who have worked hard and overcome difficulties of their upbringing to get where they are. This is EMTCity, not LearJetEnthusists city, I doubt there are too many silver spoons kicking around.

What I was trying to argue initially was that as long as we perpetuate a system that STARTS with the assumption that if you are black you must need extra help to succeed, than we perpetuate a system that needs that leg up. If we create equal opportunites than we may actually break the cycle.

I don't believe we can try to redress the lagging of visible minorities in terms of economic and academic success at the career and post-secondary level. If we want to give everyone the best opportunities in life we need to start early by making the focus of any programs, childhood. We also need to stop placing those who do not need help in the same category as those who do based soley on skin colour. We need to identify need and provide help based on it. By doing this we will no longer be telling those who have been successful (by saying finishing school and getting a career with a full time FD and sitting to right a test for a leadership position) that we believe they still need help due to an inherent inferiority. Let's try and create an exit strategy to a cycle that does nothing to impower a group.

The first step though in finding any change is being able to communicate freely. If any time a non-black person questions the merits of affirmative action they are branded a racist, than how will anything ever move forward?

[HERBIE1]

I cannot believe I am getting involved in this thread but here goes. Crotchity, you need to look up the definition of genetics. What you describe is exactly the OPPOSITE of genetics. Google nature vs nurture. You have given a great arguement for nurture, which completely negates your arguement. As abhorent as I find slavery, it is time to get over it. 300 years of slavery does not have any affect on on the tens of thousands of years of evolution that has led to our developed intelligence. To blame something that happened several hundred years ago for the current situation is just assinine. Have there been barriers to people of any race improving their education/position in live in the past? Absolutely. Is this excuse valid in today's world? Absolutely not. There are no excuses for not being able to pursue a college education with all of the resources available today (state colleges, financial aid, student loans, scholarships, etc). The only reason someone cannot advance today is because the chose not to or because the decisions they have made prevent them from doing it.

Well put, Doc. One needs to look no further than our current POTUS to see what is possible for anyone in this country. There are no legal barriers for anyone NOT to succeed and thrive. Yes, for some-(of any color or ethnic group) those barriers will be formidable, but a person or group's past does NOT predetermine their future unless they allow it to happen. Think of the immigrants who come to this country who do not know the language, culture, and are not even citizens. They come from places with oppressive governments, live in squalor, amid war, and were subjected to tortures, abuses, and hardships we can't even imagine. Their hardships are not the stuff of history, they happened to them every day. Somehow they arrive here, adapt, survive, and thrive, despite having far more obstacles in their paths and NO legal protections or the rights of citizenship versus people who are born and raised here.

[tniuqs]

docharris:

Both my parents are now entrepreneurs making greater than $200K/yr

Ok so how old is your Mom ... and is she still single ?

I slay me

not LearJetEnthusists city

Well doc I have a few hours in Lears but working medivacs :>)

cheers