Affirmative Action Stupidity

[HERBIE1]

What I was trying to argue initially was that as long as we perpetuate a system that STARTS with the assumption that if you are black you must need extra help to succeed, than we perpetuate a system that needs that leg up. If we create equal opportunites than we may actually break the cycle.

The opportunities are there for EVERYONE, it's a matter of taking advantage of them. Problem is, those opportunities are NOT promises and for most people, it takes a lot of work to take advantage of them. The issue is, when you give someone something solely based on a "payback" idea, it's no longer an opportunity, it becomes an entitlement that requires no effort on their part. That helps NOBODY and merely perpetuates the cycle.

I don't believe we can try to redress the lagging of visible minorities in terms of economic and academic success at the career and post-secondary level. If we want to give everyone the best opportunities in life we need to start early by making the focus of any programs, childhood. We also need to stop placing those who do not need help in the same category as those who do based soley on skin colour. We need to identify need and provide help based on it. By doing this we will no longer be telling those who have been successful (by saying finishing school and getting a career with a full time FD and sitting to right a test for a leadership position) that we believe they still need help due to an inherent inferiority. Let's try and create an exit strategy to a cycle that does nothing to impower a group.

Agreed. The problem is, we need to address the fundamental mindset of entitlement, and it's not PC to say that giving someone something for nothing does NOT empower them in any way. It sends the message that we feel a group is inferior and that they cannot succeed without these set asides. It has become a self fulfilling prophecy for too many- if you are essentially telling me that I can't do it without help and I can get what I need/want without trying, then why should I even put forth the effort?

My wife is in higher education at a university and despite all the outreach programs they try specifically targeted at minorities, their numbers still lag behind every other group. She deals with athletes who have been catered to their whole lives, class "valedictorians" who can barely write their own names, and people who have never been told by their families/friends that an education and hard work are worthwhile pursuits. They can address the academic shortcomings if the person is willing to put forth the effort, but how do you address an entitlement mindset that is the polar opposite of a strong work ethic? She fights a subtle but constant battle with advocacy groups on campus who push for things simply based on race, (or to a lesser degree, ethnic origin, gender, or sexual preference,) not achievement or merit.

This is a mentality that needs to be changed- a lot of people(activists, community organizers, race baiters, etc- who would be out of a job if we as a nation ever decided to push for success based on merit and achievement, so clearly this is an uphill battle. This has to start with kids, who need to be taught the value of hard work, self reliance, achievement, and it will move forward to successive generations, and no, it will not happen overnight. Clearly, until we have a fundamental shift in our emphasis- to one of advancement, not payback or retribution, nothing will change. We now have a Democratic Congress with a Democratic POTUS, so don't expect that attitude to change any time soon.

Although our POTUS is a prime example of what is possible for anyone, there are too many people and groups with a vested interest in keeping the status quo.

[CBEMT]

But if you are the child of a single mom, who was a high school drop-out, does not value education, and is not there at night to hold you accountable, you will probably not be in top tier of your class.

Unless you are proposing that New Haven firefighters live with their mommies, you have no argument. Lack of parental involvement isn't a factor here. They're grown-ass men.

Actually, you have no argument anyway. Neither one of my parents graduated a degree-granting institution. Very rarely did I get any homework help, since dad worked late and mom was usually tied up cooking, cleaning, or taking care of my much younger sibling. I was responsible for getting my homework done, and if I didn't I was responsible for the consequences. Imagine that.

Maybe if the black community spent half as much time on personal responsibility as they spent on victimhood (encouraged and coddled by white Democrats), we wouldn't need to have this absurd discussion.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I am sorry to obscure the view that you are enjoying through your rose colored glasses, but electing a black president does not make up for 300 years of transgressions. I understand the definition of genetics, and if you could unfreeze a cave man and test his IQ versus the average white american today, you would understand how 1000s of year of education have improved the genetics of those people, and their capacity to learn.

As far as proof of racism: All you have to do is watch 20/20 and Dateline, to see how far we have NOT come. One did a show where more qualified blacks applied for jobs along with whites that were part of a study group, and the blacks were passed over for the job 90% of the time, for the white applicant (was done in NY I think). The other show did a study where they sent the same resume with two different names at the top; one with an african american sounding name, the other with a white name. Guess who got called ? How many black CEOs do you know of ? How many black coaches in sports (compared to whites) ? How many black senators and congressmen are there ? And I ask once again, how many blacks do you have in a supervisory role where you work ? We do not have the same opportunities as whites. Now I will conceed that some of these issues may be more about prejudice instead of racism, as I believe a manager is more likely to hire/promote people that are most like him/her, whether they be black or white (could be subconsciously).

[HERBIE1]

I am sorry to obscure the view that you are enjoying through your rose colored glasses, but electing a black president does not make up for 300 years of transgressions.

So here it is in a nutshell. This is about paybacks, with no endpoint in sight. When will we be "punished" enough for what our ancestors did? When will this score be settled?

I understand the definition of genetics, and if you could unfreeze a cave man and test his IQ versus the average white american today, you would understand how 1000s of year of education have improved the genetics of those people, and their capacity to learn.

So by your definition of intelligence, anyone in a third world country or with an inferior educational system, these people must be less intelligent than everyone else? You are confusing education with intelligence. These are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

As far as proof of racism: All you have to do is watch 20/20 and Dateline, to see how far we have NOT come. One did a show where more qualified blacks applied for jobs along with whites that were part of a study group, and the blacks were passed over for the job 90% of the time, for the white applicant (was done in NY I think). The other show did a study where they sent the same resume with two different names at the top; one with an african american sounding name, the other with a white name. Guess who got called ? How many black CEOs do you know of ? How many black coaches in sports (compared to whites) ? How many black senators and congressmen are there ? And I ask once again, how many blacks do you have in a supervisory role where you work ? We do not have the same opportunities as whites. Now I will conceed that some of these issues may be more about prejudice instead of racism, as I believe a manager is more likely to hire/promote people that are most like him/her, whether they be black or white (could be subconsciously).

As you said, this is proof of prejudice, not racism. Sadly, this will ALWAYS be a problem with human beings. We don't trust people who are unlike us and we tend to gravitate towards people with similar backgrounds and interests. Cities have ethnic neighborhoods, entire towns and counties can be predominantly one religion or another. Is that racism, or just people expressing a preference?

As for the lack of black coaches in sports- well, what are the backgrounds of these coaches? Educational backgrounds? Did they have the skills necessary to do the job?

Again, nobody is denying that horrible things were done to blacks in the past. Jews have a similar issue, as do most every other ethnic group. Many immigrants in the early days of this country even came here as indentured servants. Point is, where do we go from here? Do we continue to punish people who's only commonality to their their ancestors and their actions is the color of their skin. Sound familiar?

We will not move on unless we stop living in the past.

[ERDoc]

I am sorry to obscure the view that you are enjoying through your rose colored glasses, but electing a black president does not make up for 300 years of transgressions. I understand the definition of genetics, and if you could unfreeze a cave man and test his IQ versus the average white american today, you would understand how 1000s of year of education have improved the genetics of those people, and their capacity to learn.

I don't beleive that anyone elected him to make up for anything. Those who voted for him did so because they thought he was the better candidate (please don't turn this in to a discussion of who was the better candidate as it is irrelevant to my point, start a new thread if you want to start the debate). You and those alive were not slaves and are not owed anything. My ancestors weren't even in the country then, they were still in Europe. What was done to the slaves was wrong and so was the discrimination after that, but let's get over it. There are ample opportunities for everyone, you just have to take the initiative.

You still continue to show that you do not understand genetics. It is the 1000s of years of evolution that has allowed us to develop higher brain functions and to become more educated. Our development of education depends on evolution. Evolution does not depend on education. If that was the case we should be able to teach any creature to read and write. According to your logic, if we read Harry Potter to them enough times, they will evolve and become more educated. Maybe in a pokemon world that would work, but not in our world.

[JPINFV]

I understand the definition of genetics, and if you could unfreeze a cave man and test his IQ versus the average white american today, you would understand how 1000s of year of education have improved the genetics of those people, and their capacity to learn.

Sorry, but you've got it completely backwards. Your genes don't change because you got a higher education.

As far as the ethnicity of CEOs, I honestly don't know or know of very many CEOs. The CEOs who I do know of are generally known for doing something bad. Do you really want a black Martha Steward or the CEO of Geico to be black?

[crotchitymedic1986]

I don't beleive that anyone elected him to make up for anything. Those who voted for him did so because they thought he was the better candidate (please don't turn this in to a discussion of who was the better candidate as it is irrelevant to my point, start a new thread if you want to start the debate). You and those alive were not slaves and are not owed anything. My ancestors weren't even in the country then, they were still in Europe. What was done to the slaves was wrong and so was the discrimination after that, but let's get over it. There are ample opportunities for everyone, you just have to take the initiative.

You still continue to show that you do not understand genetics. It is the 1000s of years of evolution that has allowed us to develop higher brain functions and to become more educated. Our development of education depends on evolution. Evolution does not depend on education. If that was the case we should be able to teach any creature to read and write. According to your logic, if we read Harry Potter to them enough times, they will evolve and become more educated. Maybe in a pokemon world that would work, but not in our world.

Caveman discovers fire and cooks his meat instead of eating dead meat that is filled with parasites = lives longer

First 100 cavemen that cook, suffer burns, get infections and die = other cavemen learn to avoid burns and live longer

education or evolution ?

[Kaisu]

Caveman discovers fire and cooks his meat instead of eating dead meat that is filled with parasites = lives longer

First 100 cavemen that cook, suffer burns, get infections and die = other cavemen learn to avoid burns and live longer

education or evolution ?

Are you suggesting that the evolutionary process works differently in people of different races? As far as I know, there have been no evolutionary changes in humans of any race for approximately 10,000 years.

[ERDoc]

Caveman discovers fire and cooks his meat instead of eating dead meat that is filled with parasites = lives longer

First 100 cavemen that cook, suffer burns, get infections and die = other cavemen learn to avoid burns and live longer

education or evolution ?

AHHHHH!!!!!! You just don't get it.

What you describe is called operant conditioning which you might be able to argue is a form of education. It is NOT evolution. Evolution is due to genetic changes, not behavioral changes. Maybe this definition will help (from the American Heritage Dictionary):

Evolution-Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

Edited April 30, 2009 by ERDoc

[paramedicmike]

Whatever happened to:

Although I do like the facepalm demotivational posters.

-be safe