Affirmative Action Stupidity

[Kaisu]

A-B students get their A-B's for successfully performing generalized studies at a C level. Most people can manage basket weaving if they practice hard enough. When we get to a specialized area of knowledge, we are asking more of them. Those A-B's start narrowing down. Do you expect all A-B students to maintain their As and Bs when they go to MIT and study rocket science. Crotch - that argument is laughably flawed and I know you are capable of much better.

[HERBIE1]

Fair statements herbie, but let met try to bring this whole discussion home:

Let's take your average EMT or Paramedic class anywhere in the US. The tests for the course and for National Registry are written by educated people, and I assume that they do not intend to be biased towards any group. Yet, many times in the past, white students who had an A-B average in school, have failed the National Registry test, and will continue to do so. I am sure you are aware of people who do not "take written tests" very well, even though they can cite the answer to the question when asked verbally. So if you have a class of 20 students, and they were all taught the same class, by the same instructor, using the same materials, why do you not get the same grade for all members of the class ? Obvioulsy those who scored poorly in class did not study as hard as the A students, so you would anticipate that they would have a lower grade, but how do you get such a wide disparity among those A-B students (some pass first time, some take 3-4 times to pass). Are they all lazy and stupid ? They all had the same opportunity ?

Finally, an actual discussion on issues. Thank you.

I have never taken the national registry so I'll have to go by what I have heard and what I have been told. Truth be told, in this area, the NREMT is not a high priority for people- it's not required for any jobs around here, it does not help you with promotions, it does not put any more money in your paycheck. From what I have been told, it is a very challenging exam and a true test of your knowledge. Is it a good idea? ANY education is a good thing and to anyone who takes it- more power to them. I'm also all for making learning a life long endeavor- always have been. I went back and got a masters degree at age 43 for my own edification.

To your point- yes, not everyone "tests well". Some people are visual learners, some do better with written, some do better with conceptual or abstract things, etc. A good teacher knows this and adapts their teaching technique until students who aren't grasping the material finally catch on. Learning disabilities, poor study habits, personal issues, distractions, phobias, anxiety- there are a myriad of reasons why people don't do well on tests. You must have a yardstick to measure how well someone understands the material presented, and in a perfect world, everyone would be tested based on their "preferred" method of learning. Obviously that is not practical. In the end, whether you succeed or fail, and whether you are top of the class or just barely make it through, everyone performs differently, based on their innate abilities and the effort they put forth. Not everyone will be a straight A student, and it has nothing to do with race.

The problem I have with your argument is that in this case the material is a known quantity. It is DOT curriculum based, and everyone has access to the material. Either you master the material or you do not. In order to sit for the NREMT, a student must have at least a basic mastery of the material in order to pass the EMT or paramedic program. To pass the NREMT, you simply demonstrate a higher level of proficiency and grasp of the material but it is NOT necessary to function in your role. WHen I finished my paramedic program-in the top 3-and took and aced the state exam, I was told that if I sat for the national registry, to be prepared to do significantly poorer on it. The stats showed that in our state, that was a fact- it was a rigorous test.

A promotional exam is also a known quantity. Everyone has the same access to the information. These firefighters already had the job, they simply needed to learn how to be an officer. Maybe none of them had the skills needed to be officers?

So when white people fail the National Registry it's because they dont take test well. When black people fail a promotional exam (probably not written by a scholar, but by a white person who had his parent's economic prosperity to support them through college (even if the student paid the loans) who works in the department), it is because they are lazy and didnt study hard enough ?

White people fail the registry for the same reasons black people fail. Either they were not prepared, or they simply are not capable of passing a more rigorous test of their knowledge. Sounds to me you have a personal gripe about this exam, but that's a separate issue. I went to college on my own dime(undergrad and graduate school), took out loans, and it took me 10 years to pay them off. I was also the first in my family to go to college. They "supported" me by realizing that education was the key to getting ahead, although certainly NOT a guarantee of success. Is that an attitude reserved only for white people? I received a couple hundred dollars a year in "aid"- not even enough to cover books for one semester. I was denied more aid because my dad made "too much money"-I was told that money was reserved for "needy" students and minorities. We were middle class, had a mortgage, a car payment, and lived an average life, took 1 big family vacation to Disney World, but were by no means wealthy. There was simply no way my parents could afford to pay my way through school. I appreciated my education because I WAS PAYING FOR IT and I knew that unless I finished that education to get a decent job, paying back that loan would take me forever. Again, the reasons for NOT doing well in school are many, but racism or bias is bull.

To lessen the financial impact of the loans in college, I took a job as an RA in the dorms. In return for a stipend and room and board, I was responsible for about 100 students. Among those students were athletes- and 99% of them were black. The majority of my discipline problems were within this group. They all had full scholarships-tuition, books, fees, room and board, spending money, and were taking the most basic of classes- mostly taught by their coaches. They spent days practicing, and nights partying, interrupted by an occasional class. Obviously most athletes never make it to the pros, and in 4 years, I knew 1 football player who made it that far and he was out of the pros in 2 years. Whenever they broke university rules and policies, they told me that it didn't matter what they did in school, that despite the odds, they were all "going pro". Most dropped out of school after injuries, were thrown out because they couldn't keep their grades up, or ran into trouble with the law. Point is, their educational issues had NOTHING to do with racism, bias, or even money. It was their attitude towards education. It was not a priority for them and they saw no value in it. Their entire lives to this point, they had been given a pass educationally because they excelled in some athletic feat. Nobody had the courage to tell them that the odds against them becoming a professional athlete were astronomical and that they had better have an education as a back up. A good number of them were functionally illiterate, despite having a high school diploma.

I worked with a couple black RA's who had similar poor backgrounds but wanted a better life and would try to talk to them and explain things to them. They knew education was their ticket out of a dead end life and worked their butts off to succeed. They came away frustrated- these athletes would hear none of that. The difference- they VALUED their education and knew a good opportunity when they saw one.

Most of these athletes returned to their poor areas, no better off than people who never graduated high school, squandering a golden opportunity that most people never get- a FREE education. Years later at work, I actually ran into a former athlete who recognized me as his RA, and he was hanging out on a street corner, gang banging and selling dope. He actually seemed a bit embarassed by what he had become.

Bottom line- don't blame the test, racism, or anything else for someone who fails to hold up their end of the bargain. Nearly everyone has significant barriers in their life that make achieving success a difficult road. By claiming racism at every turn, you do a disservice to every hard working minority who DID overcome obstacles to get ahead in life. That cheapens the efforts and achievements of every person who did succeed, despite the odds against them.

Lots of people are "Victims" of something, crochity. The choice is whether or not to be defined by that term.

Edited May 4, 2009 by HERBIE1

[Kaisu]

BTW - in response to your question of how many black people work at our station - NONE. We are chronically short of medics. Send us anyone with a pulse and a cert and they will have a job. We really don't care what color they are.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I disagree, most promotional tests are very secretive, and you may or may not have access to materials to study for it, since there is usually not a single manual/book that is used. Yes, you should have on the job knowledge, but as you are aware that will vary by shift leadership. One station may have a younger Captain that values education, while another may have a Captain who could care less about studying friction rates and gpm water problems. It could vary from station to station and shift to shift. You also have call volume to consider, the busier station, the less time there is for education versus the slower stations. But just because these guys belong to the same department, does not ensure that every candidate had the same study material, or opportunities.

Then you have the buddy system: I remember a Driver Engineer that got promoted to Captain shortly after he erected a fence around one of the new stations for free (his side business was a fence company). But of course no one does that anymore.

If i gave a national registry written test to everyone at your company today, can you guarantee me that they would all make > 90% ? No, you can't, but they all have access to the books, dont they ?

P.S. Still waiting for everyone to step up and say YES we have "x" number of african american supervisors at our EMS Department. Surely all of you have atleast "1" AA supervisor ? But my guess is that you have not spoken up because you do not want to admit that ugly truth. Apparantly all black ems professionals are lazy, and can not pass a test nation-wide. Or could it be for another reason ? We only asked to wear your white shirts, we didnt ask to wear the white hood.

Edited May 4, 2009 by crotchitymedic1986

[Eydawn]

Herbie, you hit the nail on the head. Crotchity, respond to Herbie please. Let's address the root of the problem rather than identifying the symptoms (lack of black supervisors etc. And FYI: Almost all of my supervisors at my current position are Latino.)

Herbie... I challenge you this... WHY do you think these kids didn't value education? Do you think it is possible to teach people to value education when they are culturally reinforced to NOT value education due to its connotations (quit reading, you're acting WHITE) and due to the opinions of everyone surrounding them?

How do we teach people functional literacy when they're being shot at and have no money for rent and food? How do we teach them that literacy and education are not betraying one's race, but rather the tools to fight inequality?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[CBEMT]

We only asked to wear your white shirts, we didnt ask to wear the white hood.

Take the test. Pass the test. Get the job.

Pretty simple. Nobody's going to do it for you, no matter how many handouts you guilt/blackmail Democrats into legislating for you.

White hood, really? Well, thanks for acknowledging that every white person you see is racist in your eyes. Your credibility is officially nil.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I disagree, most promotional tests are very secretive, and you may or may not have access to materials to study for it, since there is usually not a single manual/book that is used. Yes, you should have on the job knowledge, but as you are aware that will vary by shift leadership. One station may have a younger Captain that values education, while another may have a Captain who could care less about studying friction rates and gpm water problems. It could vary from station to station and shift to shift. You also have call volume to consider, the busier station, the less time there is for education versus the slower stations. But just because these guys belong to the same department, does not ensure that every candidate had the same study material, or opportunities.

Then you have the buddy system: I remember a Driver Engineer that got promoted to Captain shortly after he erected a fence around one of the new stations for free (his side business was a fence company). But of course no one does that anymore.

If i gave a national registry written test to everyone at your company today, can you guarantee me that they would all make > 90% ? No, you can't, but they all have access to the books, dont they ?

P.S. Still waiting for everyone to step up and say YES we have "x" number of african american supervisors at our EMS Department. Surely all of you have atleast "1" AA supervisor ? But my guess is that you have not spoken up because you do not want to admit that ugly truth. Apparantly all black ems professionals are lazy, and can not pass a test nation-wide. Or could it be for another reason ? We only asked to wear your white shirts, we didnt ask to wear the white hood.

We have no black EMS supervisors because we have rarely had a black person apply for work at our EMS agency - If they were qualified then they'd be hired. If they were not qualified then nope no hire.

But we have one supervisor and he's been in the job for over 5 years and he's not planning on leaving anytime soon so there has been no position open. Our department is probably not one to compare but you did ask.

And Crotch, just because there are no black people working in a particular department does not give you the right to accuse us of racism which you did with your last sentence. This is why people don't want to have a discourse with you is that you continually insert the race card.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ruffems

[CBEMT]

How do we teach people functional literacy when they're being shot at and have no money for rent and food? How do we teach them that literacy and education are not betraying one's race, but rather the tools to fight inequality?

We could start by no longer ignoring the pleas of the almost 2/3 of black parents who want school choice, charter schools, and vouchers.

Cranky will probably say it's all a whitey conspiracy though. He'd rather listen to white Democrat politicians who need blacks to stay dumb and ghettoized.

Edited May 5, 2009 by CBEMT

[Dustdevil]

Crotchity, respond to Herbie please. Let's address the root of the problem rather than identifying the symptoms (lack of black supervisors etc. And FYI: Almost all of my supervisors at my current position are Latino.)

Everybody knows that Latinos are smarter than blacks.

[celticcare]

Everybody knows that Latinos are smarter than blacks.

Don't shit stir DUST!

Crotchity, we dont have african americans here, because wow surprise I'm on the other side of the planet....

But in terms on the natives here *maori* we have quite a few in staff, including educators, advanced paramedics, all levels of care provider, cultural liason team etc. But yes the majority of workers here are white, why, because simply the population ratio here is European outnumber Maori 5:1 roughly, and the similar reasons that are listed above for AAmericans. If they don't want to work or apply themselves in the area, they don't apply. It is hard to get Maori into the service mainly because they arent interested. Can't force someone into a role they dont wanna do, including a role of being responsible for themselves.