MORPHINE or NO MORPHINE

[FireMedic65]

Is it's the patients own morphine, because at least where I come from emt's can't give morphine, and why don't they call the medic for chest pain?

Even if it is the patients own medication, an EMT can't administer it to them or assist them with it... legally. There are only a handful of meds an EMT can assist with giving a patient. Although, I do see your point.

[peachemt]

Just where can an EMT give MS to start with ?????

Wow that Coreg is magic stuff !

I think ERDoc has called this one right . .... another phishing expedition I suspect too.

Hint: Occupation:aspiring future ems

Actually trying to get as much research as possible instead of paying a $400/ hr attporney.

An EMS/county department and 3 I and 1 P medic have been involved in a big cover-up with using morphine as a sedative but it actually sent my dad into cardiac arrest.

I know EMT- P, I and rooks are "brotherhood" as I have some in my family.

It was saddening to hear neighbor witness accounts to the attitude a few rookies had in missing a "fire" call up the road. Instead they had to respond to the call which later lead to the death of my father.

A bit of fibbing in the trip-reports and very conflicting information which does not match the on-call DR Emstat report.

It is amazing when rookies have the balls to brag about giving someone 3 vials of MS (10mg each total of 30) especially in front of neighbors. The EKG were fine and the trip timeline shows the effect the morphine had when administered 3 minutes before my dad went into arrest. Code 7

We have received beneficial information from an EMT "rook" who is VERY proud of his job. It is a complete shame to see this new blood being reprimanded by the cheifs in the county admin, for just volunteering information to a family that was stripped of a loved one.

I've been around many techs and P's over the years and this one night, we received the crew from hell.

It is a shame what 2 inexperienced I's can cause for a county of 40+ heros. We have met them all, but the night from hell was when we met the "new" ones

Anyway,

I am sure I will receive some "protective" brother/sisterhood responses for fellow colleagues.

[Diazepam618]

I don't follow, so are you saying the emt's and medics caused your fathers death, or somthing else?

[akroeze]

Anyway,

I am sure I will receive some "protective" brother/sisterhood responses for fellow colleagues.

No, but it was pretty dishonest and low of you to try to get information from us without giving us the whole story only to then tell us this is to help you with a law suit.

[Kiwiology]

Peachemt

What can I say, this doesn't come as a suprise ... this is pretty low mate, I suggest you go somewhere far away from here, fast, do it now.

Edited May 19, 2009 by kiwimedic

[Siffiliss]

Just where can an EMT give MS to start with ?????

Wow that Coreg is magic stuff !

I think ERDoc has called this one right . .... another phishing expedition I suspect too.

Hint: Occupation:aspiring future ems

Haha, squint you're probably right along with the last person or two who said this. I think this peach whatever is missing out on the big picture. What they obviously don't realize is that protocols can differ from state to state and country to country. I know what my protocols are and how I would treat. This whole phishing for information in a lawsuit is wasting everyone's time, including yours peachypoo. Also, I can't understand half of what you're saying. If you've been around so many EMS people in the last few years, why not just ask them instead? I'm thinking you're not actually in the field yourself, as you'd know to give more information and probably wouldn't have so horribly mislabelled the terms that you did. From your initial post, nobody in their right mind should or would give ANY drug with that kind of lack of information.

[tniuqs]

Actually trying to get as much research as possible instead of paying a $400/ hr attporney.

Firstly I am very sorry for your loss, but the picture you have tried to paint is very confusing to start with from a medical perspective, at least you are now being honest after ERDOCs advice .. so you have advanced up the food chain in intergrity in my books.

If you wish support to become an EMT or Paramedic this is a great place to bounce things around that said if your looking for support in a possible lawsuit well its called "hearsay" and would be thrown out of court in a New York heartbeat.

Honestly, you will be much better off seeking assistance from a real licensed solicitor and I am quite certain there are a few "on line" legal advice types that could take on "Pro Bono" (sp) that could help your cause in a possible wrongful death suit, but attempting to use a Paramedic internet forum site and quote (s) will NOT help your case in the slightest, I AM sensing you want to know more ... and this is good for the grieving process.

You want some advice .... no worries happy to help you out, and its not gospel its just my opinion.

1- Document the entire event completely and leave out your opinion, just the facts observed by yourself as well as any others that were witnesses and the comments made by all parties.

2- Ask to have a copy(s) of the call report by the operator ... if they will not provide this courtesy to a direct family then your going to have to consult a lawyer, it could be a clue as to the integrity of the operator ... if they ask to meet with you then by all means comply but bring an impartial individual as a witness .. maybe your queries could be answered directly and reach a conclusion without a 3 year legal battle resulting in you being absolutely broke and even more emotionally upset.

So ask yourself this question ... would your Father want you to proceed in this fashion ?

Please be realistic your father was a true cardiopath this is bottom line, CABG i.e. Bypass is not a treatment its a surgical procedure and indicates that angiography/ angioplasty was not an option (and a very serious situation in 2000 from your history) besides the research outcome studies of those that have had CABG and 9 years of survival post surgery was a damn good outcome in my books ! I sure hope you got a few good fishing days in with your DAD, cause if you did count yourself lucky.

Lets look at the facts in regards to medication and Past Medical treatment alone:

From your Fathers list of medications on nitro, (angina) asa, (platelet inhibitor) oxycontin,(narcotic analgesia) ativan, (antianxiety) Coreg, (a complex Beta Blocker) Diovan (anti hypertension) AND with an implanted pacemaker/ defibrillator, (I could only guess with the info provided, exactly why)

Then the EF of 15 % is most likely angiography/ ultrasound finding(s) and extremely rare that the use of any medications ie Coreg would improve left Ventricular function to normal EF ~ 45 to 55%, quite seriously your Father was not long for this world ... YES harsh words but your asking for a realistic approach well the buck stops here, ps Teddy R. was one of my favorite of your Presidents.

An EMS/county department and 3 I and 1 P medic have been involved in a big cover-up with using morphine as a sedative but it actually sent my dad into cardiac arrest.

If you suspect there is some type of cover up and practicing beyond scope (of which you infer) then there are government agencies that you can contact, your DEA, boards of health and state regulatory bodies but be damn certain you can prove ANYTHING before you go that route it could end up with you on the stand with false accusations, if 400 bucks an hour is your Lawyers rate you could end up immigrating to Mexico on very short notice.

I know EMT- P, I and rooks are "brotherhood" as I have some in my family

.

We have good and weak members as in any group of professionals do and not personally being present this becomes quite awkward to suggest tangible advice, but you asked for help.

Again cut, copy, paste from any identity (non disclosed identity on any website) will be NOT be used by ANY lawyer it is basically just conjecture and with the information provided I would not personally go out on a limb and throw support to either side without a very good impartial look at all the documentation and interviews.

Its great that your trying to do your homework but as you have just observed we as a professional group on this forum site alone have enough experience to catch and expose those that (as you have witnessed) your dealing with some people that already survive based an very effective BS indicator's on a daily basis, some are quite offended when someone attempts to pull one over.

On a side note I lost my Mother a year ago in hospital post surgical complications and it becomes very easy to point a finger at this or that treatment or what a health care providers "persieved attitude" and some how that contributed to a negative outcome. This for some is part of the grieving process we try to lay blame on someone or something and being caught up with a very emotional time hell, we are after all just human, no way I will fault you for being upset.

It was saddening to hear neighbor witness accounts to the attitude a few rookies had in missing a "fire" call up the road. Instead they had to respond to the call which later lead to the death of my father.

Ok, now take every "passing comment' from a neighbor with a grain of salt they may not have heard or quoted the comment in its true sense or tenor and NOT to say that it was NOT that way at all. I would try to stay neutral, if its a Fire Based operation they too were most wanting to be with their brothers as there friends lives could have been in jeopardy as well. This can become a double edged sword when one is dealing with any integrated service with Fire/ Medics as the daily changing roll(s) can become VERY confusing, factor in a "hypothetically" that a young family was trapped in a house fire .... I hope you understand that sometimes the "big picture" is not quite as obvious as one wants it to be .

A bit of fibbing in the trip-reports and very conflicting information which does not match the on-call DR Emstat report.

Hmmm, well time for some explanations then ... I will not take sides but with a few years of experience often what the Patient tells the EMT, RN, or MD varies widely, and the moreover the level of writing skills, based on education and training .. these are huge variables.

It is amazing when rookies have the balls to brag about giving someone 3 vials of MS (10mg each total of 30) especially in front of neighbors. The EKG were fine and the trip timeline shows the effect the morphine had when administered 3 minutes before my dad went into arrest. Code 7

Ok more unsolicited advice .. don't use codes as a lay person, no matter how much drug they may or may not have on hand this is quite irrelevant, (agreed, a stupid to comment on scene but arrogance in most cases is not grounds for wrongful death suit) and what had your Father taken before with his medications and was he being honest with the Medics ... just to be fair I have had OD patients deny taking any meds to later confess to an MD a completely different situation.

The dose is the issue and 3 minutes after administration and "as you suggest a subsequent arrest" but I am gathering that you were not physically present on this call, yet if the time frame is correct then yes more investigation is needed. As for ECG is "FINE" very, very doubtful as pacemaker implants are not placed willy nilly there is an underlying reason, I will forgo the multiple medical reasons for application of pacemaker implants (and types) as without a very good comprehension of Cardiology ... straight up its pointless to continue this point.

Big question is if your Father was involved in a study then contact Medtronic for their in-sight they have very deep pockets legal advisors very knowlgable researchers .. but don't walk in with a lawsuit on your mind, or you will hit a wall.

We have received beneficial information from an EMT "rook" who is VERY proud of his job. It is a complete shame to see this new blood being reprimanded by the cheifs in the county admin, for just volunteering information to a family that was stripped of a loved one.

Ok not following at all but there is a difference between empathy, sympathy and internal departmental grievances, don't let this cloud your judgment some "rooks" (as you put it) find out they are WAY out of their league.

I've been around many techs and P's over the years and this one night, we received the crew from hell.

Quite possibly .. but with your fathers history perhaps this was just his time too no matter who responded. If you are truly aspiring to become a Paramedic yourself then use this as a life lesson, perhaps fate will motivate you to become a Great Medic yourself, as many of us get into this truly thankless profession just for personal reasons as a motivation.

It is a shame what 2 inexperienced I's can cause for a county of 40+ heros. We have met them all, but the night from hell was when we met the "new" ones

Any time one losses a loved one its not a good night for anyone and heroism in my humble definition is "over coming ones fear and putting their own life in jepordy to help someone" don't confuse heroism with duty to the community, pulling a hose or driving a truck is NOT Heroism in my books.

Anyway,

I am sure I will receive some "protective" brother/sisterhood responses for fellow colleagues.

Yes I hope you do ... as always 2 sides to a coin ....

cheers

<edited for spelling and proof reading after the fact>

Edited May 19, 2009 by tniuqs

[firedoc5]

This is something IMHO would be a judgement call that can only be answered by whoever was there. We can give you some IF I was there" advice, but to give you a definate answer, we can't do it.

Sorry for your loss.

This would have been better in the '"scenarioe' area"