Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Paramedic Confrontation

[JPINFV]

Yeah, its old news. Nothing is being done except internal investigation. I do doubt that abandonment will ever be brought up as it is ludicorous to even imply that being within 15 feet of your patient is abandoning them. The door was open and the husband entered the unit while the fiasco occurred.

Just checking, you are the same Ridryder911 on JEMS Connect, right?

[ERDoc]

Looks like the DA is not going to be filing any charges. Let's hope Mr. White can get a civil suit going (though I bet if he does he will be retaliated against when he is seen out on the streets).

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0609/629440.html

[Lone Star]

What about when the Paramedic left the ambulance and patient initially, which he himself stated in his own written words, to intervene and check on another possible patient? That is the event that supposedly escalated into the first assault.

It has always been my understanding that stepping out of the truck with a patient on board, leaving the room before patient care has been PROPERLY transferred to the recieving facility and in general leaving your patient unattended after making initial contact (without proper transfer of care to someone of equal or higher licensure) constitutes abandonment. The medic in the back of the truck should have NEVER left the patient compartment, regardless of what transpired between the driver and the troopers!

yeah Vent, I noted that in a previous post. I was always told that if you run up on an accident or other medical emergency and you as the attendent already have a patient then you don't leave your patient and have your partner check the new patient out.

Bottom line is this - YOU DO NOT LEAVE YOUR CURRENT PATIENT alone in the back of the ambulance to do so is Abandonment.

Thats how I've always viewed the abandonment criteria, Ruff.

As for abandonment, I agree. As a nurse, I am not required to stay in my patient's room for 8 straight hours, no matter how critical they are. That is not any sane, intelligent person's definition of abandonment. There is absolutely no definition or legal precedent that would hold a medic to that standard.

Dust, you of all people know that there are different rules and circumstances between people in the field and those in the hospital! How can you even compare the duties of a floor nurse to the field medics? You're comparing apples to tomatoes....-15 for you!

[JPINFV]

It has always been my understanding that stepping out of the truck with a patient on board, leaving the room before patient care has been PROPERLY transferred to the recieving facility and in general leaving your patient unattended after making initial contact (without proper transfer of care to someone of equal or higher licensure) constitutes abandonment. The medic in the back of the truck should have NEVER left the patient compartment, regardless of what transpired between the driver and the troopers!

Oh, snap. I guess I abandoned my patient last week when after loading the patient into the ambulance and while my partner was packing up the stair chair I stepped out to ask the wife a question about the patient's mental status over the past 4-5 days (flu like symptoms call). Quick. Someone call Massachusetts Office of EMS and report me!

Dust, you of all people know that there are different rules and circumstances between people in the field and those in the hospital! How can you even compare the duties of a floor nurse to the field medics? You're comparing apples to tomatoes....-15 for you!

The difference being that the hospital is full of educated providers who understand that their patients aren't going to die if someone isn't directly watching them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Edited June 6, 2009 by JPINFV

[Dustdevil]

Dust, you of all people know that there are different rules and circumstances between people in the field and those in the hospital! How can you even compare the duties of a floor nurse to the field medics?

I specifically talked about "critical" patients, so I'm not sure where you get this "floor nurse" stuff. I've never even been a floor nurse. Even in the ER and ICU we don't stand by the bedside 24/7.

If abandonment would require that you abandon your actual duties. If you abandon treatment, that is abandonment. If you abandon transportation, that is abandonment. But standing outside the open door of the ambulance, when the patient does not require immediate treatment, is no more abandonment than sticking your head into the cab to communicate with your partner. Especially in the presence of extenuating circumstances. Again, the textbook does not cover all situations. You have to think outside of the box.

Regardless of whether he was flipped off or not, this was completely unacceptable behaviour.

I hope that this cop suffers some serious street karma. And the DA too.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Dustdevil

[VentMedic]

I specifically talked about "critical" patients, so I'm not sure where you get this "floor nurse" stuff. I've never even been a floor nurse. Even in the ER and ICU we don't stand by the bedside 24/7.

Which is why we now the "eICU" in many hospitals. Physicians and nurses sit in a control room monitoring by video all of the patients when the nurses are not in the rooms. They make their own record of CR monitor numbers, meds, and ventilator settings.

[Ridryder 911]

Just checking, you are the same Ridryder911 on JEMS Connect, right?

Yeah. I met with many of the State EMS leaders today. Of course this was a hot topic. I am glad to say that it has cooled down a bit and we all feel it will be dealt with appropriately both legal and civil.

One of the State EMS officials did cite something we were not aware of that not only interfering with a medic (or medical person) while attempting to perform duties is wrong but to touch or interfere while doing duty is also illegal. Hence.. Trooper interfered and touched Paramedic.. thus violating law too. I did discuss the "abandonment" and as of right now, there appears to be NO abandonment. Could he hear and respond to the patient (if the trooper did not have him restrained? Yes. Also, some questions are now being brought up since this was a Federal vehicle and yes, that makes a difference.

I just to point out; alike out profession there are several hundred OHP that are the best and most professional and one or two does not represent their profession in general. Also, I would hate to see the videos that could be produced by many following the majority of EMS within the U.S. We as well would be ashamed upon something.

R/r 911

Edited June 6, 2009 by Ridryder 911

[Dustdevil]

Also, some questions are now being brought up since this was a Federal vehicle and yes, that makes a difference.

Oooh! I didn't think of that! An FBI investigation, maybe! I can think of a laundry list of potential federal charges that could be applied here, not to mention the Civil Rights violations.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Dustdevil

[VinMann]

I can't believe that some are so ignorant as to suggest abandonment. The most logical reason for a LEO to pull over an ambulance would be for some one in his squad in need of urgent care. The paramedic would have grabbed the jump kit and the EMT (driver) would take the paramedics place in back of the rig. This is not abandonment. If the EMT was back in the rig or in a position to take over care when the paramedic stepped out then this is not abandonment. If the patient is not critical and the paramedic steps out for what should be a ten second communication of "We have a patient, meet us at the ER" then this is not abandonment.

What the EMT and paramedic are guilty of is failure to recognize a renegade trooper. If the trooper did not immediately release them after informing about the patient, the driver (or paramedic) should have been on the radio, to county, for a deputy to charge the trooper with obstruction. In this case the driver should have called county to have a deputy meet at the hospital to calm the trooper down and take their complaint. Perhaps they thought the second trooper would do that.

If the DA closes his eyes to the situation ( It seems he was considering charging the paramedic with assault until the evidence showed up against the trooper) then the EMS and firefighters of the area should start a campaign to remove him from office.

If the State Police commander could not determine if the trooper perjured himself them he should be fired. If not then the people of Oklahoma should fire their governor.

What kind of people run the state of Oklahoma? (Uh, I shouldn't ask that question, I'm from Illinois.)

Edited June 6, 2009 by VinMann

[JPINFV]

Yeah.

The reason I asked is it seems like you were more understanding of the charges of abandonment being thrown about by providers on JEMS Connect since there isn't a call light in EMS like in the hospital whereas on here you called the idea ludicrous.