Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Paramedic Confrontation

[Lone Star]

According to "Emergency Care: 11th Edition", abandonment is defined as:

"leaving a patient after care has been initiated and before the patient has been transferred to someone with equal or greater medical training." (page 55)

Since the paramedic cannot treat the patient through a closed door, he's left the patient unattended after initiating medical care. Since the medic was the 'highest medical license on scene', he cannot obviously 'hand down' to the EMT (who was not in the truck). Since neither medical provider was in the back of the truck with the patient, the patiet was not being attended to.

Transferring patient care to a nurse or physician at the receiving facility releases the EMT/Paramedic from further obligation to treat the patient, as they're now in the care of someone of higher licensure.

What happens with the patient after that, is no longer going to come along and bite ME in the ass! I don't see OEMS dictating protocols and rules for physicians and nurses....do you?

[Chief1C]

Don't become a cook book KIA now

[JPINFV]

Lone, by that definition any time a paramedic hands off a patient to a basic then the paramedic has abandoned the patient. Also anyone doing a discharge to home or assisted living facility similarly abandons their patient. Also, do you seriously think that EMS is special enough to have our own legal definition of abandonment that is about a million times stricter than the laws governing other medical professionals?

[joesph]

watched the dash cam vid and have watched the other as well as read the statements. I can see with hind site some things that could have been done better by the medic but I can't see anything he did wrong really, yes abandonment could be stated in this incident but I'm sure if he had none how it was going to play out he would have stayed in back. I have to wonder still if there isn't some behind the scenes bad blood here with the way the cop reacted. The cop to say the least was unprofessional in his conduct, and to do this knowing he is being recorded makes me wonder if he is suited for law enforcement work.

[Ridryder 911]

According to "Emergency Care: 11th Edition", abandonment is defined as:

"leaving a patient after care has been initiated and before the patient has been transferred to someone with equal or greater medical training." (page 55)

Since the paramedic cannot treat the patient through a closed door, he's left the patient unattended after initiating medical care. Since the medic was the 'highest medical license on scene', he cannot obviously 'hand down' to the EMT (who was not in the truck). Since neither medical provider was in the back of the truck with the patient, the patiet was not being attended to.

Transferring patient care to a nurse or physician at the receiving facility releases the EMT/Paramedic from further obligation to treat the patient, as they're now in the care of someone of higher licensure.

What happens with the patient after that, is no longer going to come along and bite ME in the ass! I don't see OEMS dictating protocols and rules for physicians and nurses....do you?

Since when did "Emergency Care" become an legal authority? Seriously, Emergency Care.. surely you could cite something a little more detail than a basic textbook (at least a decent one).

I have discussed this with the "authorities" that do govern the license of the Paramedic and of this time, no instance or grounds of abandonment has been considered.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Ridryder 911

[FireMedic65]

He DID NOT abandon the patient. He did not leave the patient, he did not stop giving care. He may not have been holding the patients hand the whole time, but there was someone with the patient when he wasn't there starring at them. Besides, he cannot be charged with abandonment, when he was REMOVED from giving patient care. At no time, did he "leave" the patient. If he would have walked away and went home or to get dinner while the patient sat in the back, yea, that's a different story. That definition is pretty crappy if you ask me. We "leave" our patients all the time.

When he "left" the patient and put care in the hands of the EMT, that also does not mean he abandoned the patient to a person of lesser training. HE WAS STILL THERE!!!

Emergency Care, contradicts itself a lot from what I remember. I don't have the time to go through the books and cite them all though. I would not trust those books for legal advice.

[Dustdevil]

Don't become a cook book KIA now

Seriously, Lone. You're suddenly becoming that which you usually deplore. Think about it.

[Christina Bedgood]

I can't believe both sides just acted to unprofessionally blatantly in front of the public. IMHO they deserve whatever punishment/bad press comes their ways after this.

I would not say that the paramedic was unprofessional in any way. I, myself have only been defended and protected on scene by law enforcement. However, in this exact same situation, I would hope that I could maintain a professional manner. However, being pulled away from my patient, family members understandably upset, and to top it off, a "fellow civil servant" screaming in my partner, then my face and then inexcusably, 2 troopers putting their hands on me, much less around my neck. I would have put the patient first, of course and repeatedly apologized to her and her family. He and his partner's report seemed to be accurate and void of emotion. I always try to put myself in the other person's situation. At my best, I don't think that I could have held it together as these two medics did.

[tniuqs]

Thanks Rid .. very interesting "Spin" put on this very unnecessary traffic stop by the Lawyer, I am shocked ... NOT!

First off the Lawyer presumes the car that was passed was yielding to the sound of the siren, thats kinda stretching things looked to me as if the car was already stopped.

Even if the EMS Operator did "flip" the bird it becomes a mute point get a "thicker skin" Officer ... good grief this is this a felony now.

Just have to love the "Kaos" refers too, as if Police should be exempt from the Law of "common sense"

The "ORDERS" disobeyed by the Paramedic are not contempt but an attempt to introduce rational thought process, initially the contact was very professional ... the LEO escalated the situation and even the Lawyer admits this.

But whatever, the huge damage has been done across North America .. I was chatting with RCMP about 200 miles north of black fly infested Ft. McMurray where this situation is even on the FM radio ... quite the Black Eye .... the RCMP I spoke with suggest the LEO should plead guilty to the charge of "redneck hick" and be done with this !

[Dustdevil]

Yeah, the lawyer spin was tres' lame at best. He kept repeating "here, now" in a soft, non-threatening, almost lispy manner, as if that were how the trooper said it. Misrepresentation is as good as a lie.

And there is not the slightest chance that the car pulled over because he saw the trooper. He pulled over because he saw an ambulance on his bumper.

The lawyer talks about how long the trooper was stuck behind the ambulance. However, if you subtract that amount of time where the ambulance mirrors were not visible -- meaning the EMT could not see the trooper -- it is suddenly a much, much shorter period of time. How the Hell can you be a trooper for two years and not understand that drivers cannot see you when you are that close to their arse?

The comment from the Mountie is in line with the popular sentiment in the LEO community. Not even on the LEO forums can you find anyone defending this redneck. That says something.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Dustdevil