Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Paramedic Confrontation

[Katiebug]

If the ambulance was running L/S, it is perfectly understandable why the driver never heard the police cruiser. It's hard enough sometimes to hear a siren when you just have the radio on until the EV is upon you.

Either way, no matter who was at fault, it was foolish of the officer to not let the ambulance get the pt to the hospital before dealing with this. Some additional training is warranted for both parties.

As a side note, the officer needs to remember who will be standing over him when a meth head puts some bullet holes in him at that "routine" traffic stop. I bet he'd hate to see that same paramedic then.

[JPINFV]

It does, however, bring me to a good point to ask in class tonight as far as what protocol here is concerning right of way between two first responders en route to different calls.

You need a protocol for this?

[tniuqs]

Well Well ...

Not observing the entire incident it maybe a bit premature to comment, the video jumping about from the driver agreeing and then the cop arresting the attendant and becoming very emotional ... (this is disgraceful bottom line, very unprofessional) ...

As for resisting arrest by shaking off a grab by cops then resulting in 2 putting a choke hold is police abuse of power when quite clear the transport could have been allowed to continue (traffic violations without damages are not a felony arrest situation just a obvious power struggle by LEO. (as mentioned before it was not like the Ambulance destination was unknown)

ARREST while the EMS provider in the process of giving care DEPLORABLE ! In Alberta this LEO could be charged under obstruction.

The real crime here is to the patients rights in my view and quite clear that the cell phone recorder was SUPER upset with the proceedings (even told the attendant WHY he was recording ... for you guys (indicating to the ambulance attendant) bottom line more lawyers will be casing in no mater what the outcome now.

Does anyone have an email contact to contact OHP ? I would not hesitate to voice my opinion regarding general conduct of both officers and that the Police officer should have yielded to the Ambulance and not stopped en route with L+S operating, question raised: if there was a near miss with a Fire Truck would the OHP try to stop a 20 ton truck too? ... and maybe roid testing for the officers.

This will become a PR nightmare for everyone as it is now posted on the net.

As a side note, the officer needs to remember who will be standing over him when a meth head puts some bullet holes in him at that "routine" traffic stop. I bet he'd hate to see that same paramedic then.

Then there is that too ...

You need a protocol for this?

We have a actual LAW here in Alberta, one emergency vehicle is restricted to not overtake another without direct radio contact, if responding to the same call the use of siren tone to change for each vehicle, ie Wail, then Hi Low, then Yelp ... just makes sense too and why when operating my personal truck the window is always open and listening for Emergency Vehicle going to the same call, so I don't get blind sided.

cheers

[VentMedic]

Either way, no matter who was at fault, it was foolish of the officer to not let the ambulance get the pt to the hospital before dealing with this. Some additional training is warranted for both parties.

As a side note, the officer needs to remember who will be standing over him when a meth head puts some bullet holes in him at that "routine" traffic stop. I bet he'd hate to see that same paramedic then.

What a horrible thing to say! I want no harm to come to any LEO just to prove a point about being needed as a Paramedic.

These LEOs will also be first in on a scene to ensure your safety. Now, LEOs must wonder if you are going to seek revenge for some stupid video that was poorly filmed by withholding care for them or doing one of the many "just for fun" treatments discussed on the EMS forums?

The officer's video cam film will be released in due time now that this is in the media just as others have been.

Officers do pull over for ambulances. They even assist them through intersections. We don't know how fast this ambulance was going or if it was safe for the OHP to pass. If the ambulance was the slower moving vehicle, he should have given the OHP room to pass. We don't know what emergency the OHP was responding to. We don't know if the ambulance was just running L&S because they run them for all transports, emergent or not. We don't know why the other attendant got involved in a serious scuffle with the LEOs. There is a lot this video is not showing us.

[ncmedic309]

That was completey wrong - never should have happened. They should be working together, not against one another. The troopers appeared to be out of line when they got physical with the paramedic on the unit. It didn't appear that it needed to go that far, and I would have reacted the same way with them grabbing ahold of me. The only difference is it would have been an all out brawl after that dude grabbed my throat, they would have had legit charges against me after that - you don't put your hands on me unless it's warranted, it becomes self defense at that point.

[tniuqs]

What a horrible thing to say!

Say vs Do ?

Do we live in a POLICE state where at any annoyance / whim of a LEO and one cannot give THEM a reality check ?

Well looks to me that the Medic was assaulted and undue force was used ... ie the hand on the throat is WAY over the line, the medic was attempting to leave the conflict not assaulting the Officer and placed under arrest for WHAT ? at the side door of the rig ?

Well unless the Medic threatened to Kill the officer and highly doubtful, the Cops WRONG on every level and bad judgment.

Point being IMHO I have personally on many occasions observed LEO's doing stupid things as they feel they are above the Law and DO forget who is always their for them, these links just yesterday.

http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/ambulance...ged-DUI-driver/

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/dies+a...2330/story.html

A sidebar:

About 2 weeks ago an RCMP did U turn and illegal and when unsafe to do so, on the Highway just south of my residence to stop a speeder ...

This ended up in his death because he pulled in front of a 40 ton truck, THEN the driver of the Truck got charged, I was on scene after and did the math the Cop committed Darwinian suicide the Truck Driver didn't have a chance .. but then again he is not a Cop.

cheers

Edited May 27, 2009 by tniuqs

[FireMedic65]

Very poorly handled indeed! The ambulance had a patient, in an emergency. The police pulled over an ambulance going en-route to the hospital with a patient. Like Chris said, they should be charged with endangering the patient. Show some professional courtesy. It's not like they were going to get lunch. The police could very well have gone to their station and sorted it out there.

Just another bad cop, giving all other cops a bad name.

[VentMedic]

Well looks to me that the Medic was assaulted and undue force was used ... ie the hand on the throat is WAY over the line, the medic was attempting to leave the conflict not assaulting the Officer and placed under arrest for WHAT ? at the side door of the rig ?

Well unless the Medic threatened to Kill the officer and highly doubtful, the Cops WRONG on every level and bad judgment.

Point being IMHO I have personally on many occasions observed LEO's doing stupid things as they feel they are above the Law and DO forget who is always their for them, these links just yesterday.

We do not see on the video what transpired with the second ambulance attendant that caused the LEOs to restrain him. We do not see what he did to get himself arrested. However, once you are placed under arrest, you are an idiot to fight the police physically. Take it to court. If the LEOs are wrong, you win. However, with the video displaying your temper for the world to see, you will be the one looking stupid because those charges may still exist even if the others are dropped.

This one incident has turned some EMS forums into a cop bash fest. It is just shameful and just bad form for professionals. LEOs are the ones who have our safety in mind at many scenes. Why all the cop hate remarks? Let us not wish harm to those in law enforcement. We've got just as many if not more stupid people in EMS doing much worse and often to patients. There are bad apples in all professions.

If an LEO pulls you over even with a patient, it may be for a good reason. Have we not read the headlines with impaired and just unsafe drivers? He could be investigating a complaint. That LEO has a responsibility to the public and to that patient in the back. I have been in an ambulance for a truck malfuncition when a dual tire was loose and equipment was not secured. It doesn't take but a few seconds to get the situation under control and be on your way safely. Maybe if EMS policed itself a little better we could have prevented some of the deaths to patients and crew members due to collisions in ambulances. Instead, we would rather just sit around making excuses and bashing those trying to enforce traffic laws to keep everyone safe.

In the video it seemed the driver had resolved the issue but the other ambulance crew member decided he needed his camera time.

Edited May 27, 2009 by VentMedic

[medic_texas]

The actions of the LEO in this incident shouldn't change anyone's opinion about other LEO's. We all work with other areas of public safety and we should all respect each other and their duty.

My opinion, the LEO acted inappropriately and should be reprimanded. He delayed medical treatment (by a physician) to the patient, he took away the primary attendant from the patient who was being treated in the ambulance, and they did not handle the situation in a professional matter. They could have followed the ambulance to the hospital and then stated their case.

IT WAS NOT AN EMERGENCY TO STOP THE AMBULANCE AND DELAY THE TRANSPORT OF THE PATIENT! The detention, restraining, and altercation with the paramedic was unjustified and I would believe will lead to the trooper's dismissal from the OHP.

I believe the trooper(s) were acting on emotion, anger, and authority (which in this case is abuse of).

The paramedic, also acting out of frustration (which I can't blame him for), did put his hands up to the trooper. True, the trooper was in his face and had him pushed against the ambulance (in an intimidating manner). Cooler heads will prevail.

Honestly, I would have been pissed. I probably would have acted the same way as the medic. I hope we are updated on the outcome of this. Not to mention the civil suit that will probably be filed by the family.

[Riblett]

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a cop bash fest, as much as I would worthy criticism for both parties. If the HP approached with a very high rate of speed, the driver of the ambulance may not have ever seen the warning lights until the patrol car was too close to the unit to be seen by the rearview mirror, especially if his vision was focused on the car in front of him. If the patrol car did have audible warning devices on, the driver did not hear them, which would not be so far fetched if his radio was screeching. If there was no safe and appropriate shoulder for the ambulance to pull to, they may not have safely been able to do so, especially considering how large and top heavy the vehicle is.

From looking at the video, it seems that they belligerence of the officers was completely unnecessary and not in the best interest of the patient. But until we see the dash board footage we won't know if there was additional behavior on the part of the ambulance crew that provoked it.