Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Paramedic Confrontation

[Just Plain Ruff]

Here is a definition of abandonment that I found via a Jems article

Abandonment is sometimes defined as the unilateral termination of the provider/patient relationship at a time when continuing care is still needed

Once the medic was arrested by the trooper which is what the trooper was trying to do in fact, then the relationship between the paramedic and the patient was terminated.

Once you are arrested you don't get to go back and take care the stuff you were trying to take care of.

Second, the EMT should have assumed care of the patient but if the patient was dehydrated then I would assume (I know, I know) but assume I do, that the patient has an IV and is on a cardiac monitor and the last time that I looked EMT's are not able to monitor IV's nor to watch the cardiac monitor. Those are not skills that EMT's are taught.

I really don't care about this case but I do think that a quasi stupid case could be made for abandonment if the winds of change were blowing the wrong way. .

[FireMedic65]

The medic did not abandon the patient. Even though he didn't have a hawkeye on the patient the whole time, he never discontinued treatment. If the cop would have taken him away, that is a different story. Technically, I suppose it could have been abandonment, but he was would have been forceabley taken away from the patient. Then, if that had happened the officer would be liable to endangering patient care.

[Just Plain Ruff]

The medic did not abandon the patient. Even though he didn't have a hawkeye on the patient the whole time, he never discontinued treatment. If the cop would have taken him away, that is a different story. Technically, I suppose it could have been abandonment, but he was would have been forceabley taken away from the patient. Then, if that had happened the officer would be liable to endangering patient care.

Like I said, I really don't care. But he was under arrest, had they have taken him away then yeah, it would be abandonment but that didn't happen.

It will never go that far, not by a long shot.

[VentMedic]

The medic did not abandon the patient. Even though he didn't have a hawkeye on the patient the whole time, he never discontinued treatment. .

Since we haven't seen the dash cam video, we don't know how far away he was from his patient or if his attitude totally distracted him from the patient in the back.

The part in the cell phone video shows the later part of the whole incident and not the one in question.

Too much is not known including the words exchanged and earlier actions of all when the initial stop was made.

[Ridryder 911]

It was announced today that the District Attorney will NOT be placing charges upon any of those involved and informed all parties that they should all get along. Case closed at least for the legal part, except the tribal Chiefs are investigating possibility of violation and now let the civil suits begin.

R/r 911

[Jeepluv77]

I know I'm a little behind here but here goes. First off, if the officer is sued it's not going to come from his pocket but rather the taxpayers most likely. So I'd be careful about wanting the family or Paramedic White to sue, especially if you live in Oklahoma.

Secondly, if the officer was able to radio them, why did he wait till they moved instead of just radioing when he first realized they weren't? Then he probably would have gotten an apologetic "Couldn't see you back there" and the ambulance would have moved. All of this was 100% avoidable right there.

Also, seems to me just from the video I saw, that the officer's statements are total BS and they should be charged with perjury. Before anyone jumps on that let me outline why. For the sake of saving space I'll cut out the parts of the article that aren't relevent. The full article can be found on a previous page of this thread.

"In his report, Trooper Daniel Martin, who is at the center of the confrontation, said he was heading west into Paden to aid the Okfuskee County Sheriff's Office on a stolen-vehicle call."

Apparently wasn't that big a deal because three blocks later he was pulling out to harrass the ambulance.

"Eventually, the ambulance pulled over, he said, and he contacted the paramedics over their EMS radio, telling them they should be more observant."

Again, why not just radio in the first place?

"Once on the scene of the stolen-car report in Paden, Martin said he saw the ambulance pass and observed Franks extend his left hand out the window with his middle finger raised.

'I took the gesture as a sign of defiance to (the) failure to yield earlier, and that they (ambulance) did not believe they had a responsibility to adhere to the rules of the road in regards to my emergency vehicle,' Martin said.

Seeing that the stolen-car call was under control, Martin said, he chased the ambulance until it pulled over."

Wow, in the time it took an ambulance to start moving again and travel three blocks he managed to arrive at his scene and determine he wasn't need and could go harrass an ambulance? Again, wasn't that important to begin with. Let's look at whoever dispatched the call requiring him to fly down the road L&(S?) and why they didn't cancel him when the situation was secured.

"Fearing possible violence, Martin said he backed away from White and then went to his cruiser to radio Trooper Bryan Iker for help."

It's all too obvious this guy wasn't afraid of anything. Seems he's the one that was violent.

The trooper then walked back to the ambulance and tried to tell White he would be arrested once he arrived at the hospital, but the paramedic was not in the ambulance with the patient.

Martin said he walked around to the passenger side of the ambulance where White was standing. White was angry, wanting to file charges against the trooper for assaulting a paramedic, he said.

Another scuffle ensued, and Martin said White grabbed him around the neck, refusing to let go.

This is all complete 100% total bullshit. This is referring to the scuffle that was caught on tape and posted on YouTube. When the troopers got to the side of the ambulance White was still in it, just getting out. I never saw White grab the officer around the neck, but I clearly saw the officer grab White around the neck. This right here completely destroys the credibility of Martin and he should be on administrative leave pending an investigation into this. And yes, the camera was not directly on him at this point but given that both hands appear to be down below neck level I just don't see how it's possible.

"Iker's report backs up Martin's account of the second scuffle."

Ditto for this one.

As it was, Franks was ultimately given a written warning for failure to yield. White was not arrested at the hospital.

Seems to me that, given the obvious aggression of someone willing to assault an officer, he would have definitely been deemed a danger to the public and arrested. Cops have how many weapons and this guy had none? Yeah, he'd have to be pretty messed up in the head to assault an officer. Especially when there are other cops there with more weapons!

I don't doubt that Paramedic White could have handled himself better. He definitely lost his cool. But it didn't warrant the actions taken against him. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why no charges are being filed. It's already too easy for a cop to get away with whatever they want, but White arguing made it a lot easier. Whoever said they should have just radioed to county is absolutely right. After that, the ball would have been back in Martin's court.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Jeepluv77

[MedicRN]

Which is why we now the "eICU" in many hospitals. Physicians and nurses sit in a control room monitoring by video all of the patients when the nurses are not in the rooms. They make their own record of CR monitor numbers, meds, and ventilator settings.

As an eICU nurse, I can tell you eICUs do not have eyes on (cameras on) the patients 24/7. Yes, we have access to various monitors/alarms, we do not sit with 40+ cameras tuned into every patient 24/7.

[VentMedic]

As an eICU nurse, I can tell you eICUs do not have eyes on (cameras on) the patients 24/7. Yes, we have access to various monitors/alarms, we do not sit with 40+ cameras tuned into every patient 24/7.

Only 40 cameras?

What is the average acuity levels of your ICU(s)? Is your ICU more med-surg? More 1:1 patient:RN ratio? 2:1? 3:1? Centralized or Pods?

You are listed as central USA. You definitely can not speak for all eICUs in this country and especially not at the hospitals I work at.

Our hospitals are open 24/7 and so are the eICUs. We don't get lax on patient observation just because the sun sets or it is after 5 pm.

You may just have a general monitoring system and not one that provides much in the way of patient observation.

Edited June 7, 2009 by VentMedic

[MedicRN]

Only 40 cameras?

What is the average acuity levels of your ICU(s)? Is your ICU more med-surg? More 1:1 patient:RN ratio? 2:1? 3:1? Centralized or Pods?

You are listed as central USA. You definitely can not speak for all eICUs in this country and especially not at the hospitals I work at.

Our hospitals are open 24/7 and so are the eICUs. We don't get lax on patient observation just because the sun sets or it is after 5 pm.

You may just have a general monitoring system and not one that provides much in the way of patient observation.

I know the difference between a "general monitoring system" in an ICU and a virtual ICU. I think you are confusing general camera monitoring/observation done at the nurses station (regardless of station configuration and/or patient acuity) with true off-site remote monitoring (eICU).

I work both sides of the camera. As an eICU RN in a remote location, I'm responsible for monitoring only 40-50 of the few hundred beds we monitor (everyone in the remote eICU location has their own assignment of 40-50 beds). We have the same alarms as the RN at bedside has. We camera in and out of the patient rooms throughout the shift, checking on various things. We rarely have a camera on a patient longer than a few minutes. We also have an MD in the remote location making camera rounds a well. They generally do not directly manage patient care, but rather are there for consultation with the RNs and on-site MDs (should they chose to use it that way).

Check out these links (Via Christi Regional Medical Center, VISICU, St Lukes Health System). This what I do and what I am referring to at eICU.

The acuity in the ICUs we monitor are 1:1 and 2:1 (primarily). The ICUs are a variety of specialities.... MICU, SICU, Burn ICU, Neuro ICU, CCU, CVICU (all in our Level I Trauma Center) and outlaying community facilities with "lower" acuity ICUs. The configuration of the nurses station has not bearing on our system as we physically are not in the building with them.

Now back to our regularly schedule topic.............................

Edited June 8, 2009 by MedicRN

[VentMedic]

I know the difference between a "general monitoring system" in an ICU and a virtual ICU. I think you are confusing general camera monitoring/observation done at the nurses station (regardless of station configuration and/or patient acuity) with true off-site remote monitoring (eICU).

I work both sides of the camera. As an eICU RN in a remote location, I'm responsible for monitoring only 40-50 of the few hundred beds we monitor (everyone in the remote eICU location has their own assignment of 40-50 beds). We have the same alarms as the RN at bedside has. We camera in and out of the patient rooms throughout the shift, checking on various things. We rarely have a camera on a patient longer than a few minutes. We also have an MD in the remote location making camera rounds a well. They generally do not directly manage patient care, but rather are there for consultation with the RNs and on-site MDs (should they chose to use it that way).

Check out these links (Via Christi Regional Medical Center, VISICU, St Lukes Health System). This what I do and what I am referring to at eICU.

The acuity in the ICUs we monitor are 1:1 and 2:1 (primarily). The ICUs are a variety of specialities.... MICU, SICU, Burn ICU, Neuro ICU, CCU, CVICU (all in our Level I Trauma Center) and outlaying community facilities with "lower" acuity ICUs. The configuration of the nurses station has not bearing on our system as we physically are not in the building with them.

Now back to our regularly schedule topic.............................

Do you think I do not know the different between a tele monitoring system and an eICU? Also, it seems your hospital has grown some since your first post.

I was referring to eICUs which are monitored 24/7 and not just during certain hours. Patients don't stop having emergencies just because you have put in your 8 hours. We are able to provide eICU coverage to all 4 of our hospitals with all the same ICUs you mentioned. Maybe it is time you upgrade your system to keep up with the rest of us to give your patients 24/7 coverage.

If you have studied anything about hospital management, you would know the various factors associated with the configuration of the units including monitoring and staffing. That is Planning 101 and each factor must be considered in any remodel with all aspects to ensure patient safety.