Just Plain Ruff Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 If you need a dumbed down version of a standardized test that is already dumbed down enough then you probably need to choose a different line of work.
HERBIE1 Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 If you need a dumbed down version of a standardized test that is already dumbed down enough then you probably need to choose a different line of work. The vast majority of these tests are written at the level of an average newspaper- around 6th grade. The claim in most of these cases is that the test itself is racially biased somehow. In the case of the listed lawsuit, the test was made race neutral and they still did not get the results they wanted. Short of throwing out the results and simply picking the numbers that make everyone happy, I don't see what else should be done. We recently had a big uproar when it appeared that the test for our city's police academy was discriminatory against minorities. Yeah, you read that right. I don't understand how a standardized test can be discriminatory, but that's what they said. Anyway, they "dumbed it down" which caused another uproar. The plain and simple is that the test wasn't the problem. The problem was the education these men and women recieved beforehand. By the time you reach the age to enroll in the police academy, you should be able to do basic math. That's the portion that was failing people. If not, take a remedial course and be angry with all teachers you had growing up that didn't bother to make sure you got it. Don't sue the city for making sure it's officers can do at least a minimal amount of math. We aren't talking calculus here. We are talking at most basic algebra, geometry, and statistics/probability. These are skills that can be essential in prefoming the job. Now we have a bunch of officers-to-be that won't be able to figure out distance or speed or anything else requiring any math skills. Not to mention the fact that they weren't willing to work for it in the first place by studying. I think maybe the time has come to put regulations on affirmative action. There are, unfortunately, still situations where it may be warranted. But when the public safety is at risk, no. Sorry, you should be held to the same standards as everyone else, which is still woefully inadequate at times. What many cities are doing- in ours as well- is that they require 60 hours of college credit(not even necessarily a degree) to even apply for the job in law enforcement. At that point, if a person is able to complete 2 years of college course work, I guess the assumption is the applicants must have at least a minimum level of intelligence, competence, and diligence.
Dustdevil Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) What many cities are doing- in ours as well- is that they require 60 hours of college credit(not even necessarily a degree) to even apply for the job in law enforcement. At that point, if a person is able to complete 2 years of college course work, I guess the assumption is the applicants must have at least a minimum level of intelligence, competence, and diligence. It's a nice theory. And unfortunately, it's about all we have to work with. But I attended a traditionally Black college for three years, so I know better. You're passed for showing up. If you show up, and the professors recognise that you are actually smart enough to function at a higher level, they hold you to a higher standard for your grades so that the curve isn't thrown off. Of course, that isn't enough to drop college requirements over. It is still a sign of commitment, even if they learn very little. But having spent nearly ten years in college myself, I know better than to ever assume that someone's mere attendance indicates a higher level of knowledge or function. Edited July 2, 2009 by Dustdevil
crotchitymedic1986 Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 What time are youall burning the cross ? You guys seem to forget that the last time we discussed this topic, I asked a very simple question : I asked everyone who had a black supervisor in EMS to speak up, funny, no one ever spoke up. But there isnt any racism in EMS, except for those whites who felt oppressed because they didnt get a promotion. Please enjoy your win over minorities again. As stated before, you can keep the white hoods, we african americans just wanted to wear the white shirt once !
Jeepluv77 Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Hey, crotchity, don't include me there! I've never run on an ambulance yet as I'm going straight through the program, but my absolute favorite proctor is a black man. He's not only incredibly smart but he's real with students. I've heard him tell more than one student that they weren't going to make it unless the toughened up, studied more, prayed, etc. He's also fun to hang out with on breaks and you can ask him anything without worrying about him taking it out of context. However, I don't know of any black supervisors around here, and I really think this guy should be up for the next spot open. Not because he's black, but because of all the medics I've met, he's got the best supervisory skills. I have a feeling though that the reason he doesn't have the spot is that he's only been a medic for three years. The real question is how do you get more black students interested in the field? In the past three semesters we've had a total of four black men and no black women in my classes. Out of well over 100 students. Edited July 3, 2009 by Jeepluv77
Dustdevil Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) But there isnt any racism in EMS, except for those whites who felt oppressed because they didnt get a promotion. Almost relevant, except this is about the fire service, and not EMS. Nice try though. And for the record, I've had four black EMS supervisors in my career, to the best of my recollection. Maybe more. Considering how relatively few blacks even entered EMS throughout those years, that's pretty good. Edited July 3, 2009 by Dustdevil
Just Plain Ruff Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 Crotchity, how dare you lump everyone single one of us on this forum as racist and hood wearing klansmen. I, in your last thread where you called us all racist responded with my experiences with people of color in supervisory roles in the departments that I had and do work for. I take significant offense to your lumping all of us on this forum as racist. You do not see me here lumping you in to the all black men are stupid or all black men are criminals. Again, once the race card is pulled then all intelligent discourse is ceased for fear of being called a racist. You are practicing reverse racism here. I have worked in numerous capacities where a black man or woman, a hispanic or whatever other oppressed race you want to put out there have been in some sort of leadership role and those people have all been very smart and I am sure deserved their position. Let's face it, if you need a test dumbed down from an original 6th grade level to a further level of let's say 2nd grade and you still cannot pass the test then let's face it, you really are Stupid is as stupid does. You have had some good points in the past on this forum but your comment about letting me keep my white hood has effectively ended my limited respect for you on this forum. Ruff out
fiznat Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 Please enjoy your win over minorities again. Just to boil this down to the point we are actually discussing: Crotchity, do you think the test should have been thrown out because not enough minorities passed?
jwraider Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 I have one now and I never thought of it that way until crotchity posted so thanks for stoking that fire for no reason. We need to find a better way of testing and interviewing to ensure both fairness and competency. I'm sorry if you failed the test because your background didn't provide you the education you needed to pass it. I know that for countless people this is due to discrimination and lack of opportunity. This is tragic but the problem isn't going to be solved during by EMS/FIRE and hiring placement tests it needs to be solved in our schools and our culture at large. I understand that the debate on this topic is actually doing that so for that reason it is a good thing this has come up. The more we look at the problem and the more we work towards a solution the better for everyone. I'll contradict myself somewhat and acknowledge the opportunity needs to be there in EMS/FIRE. Meaning people need to know that if they do well the job is there waiting for them. Otherwise why try? Who would work hard knowing if they show up for a job they would be passed on because of skin color? Access to public service positions need to be fair and I applaud those trying to do so. I still think their should be requirements for the job that set high standards. The problem is the methods being used! In order to ensure that opportunity I just mentioned for minorities they are making the majority feel like the opportunity is being taken away. For example I know that if I go to a chief’s interview for a big city department the questions will be general and vague: "tell us about a time you had a disagreement with someone". This is discouraging to me and makes me wonder why I've been working so hard to go to school and gain relevant experience to the position? Because I'm white I don't make for a "diverse" workforce so why test for a job where I can't stand out based on who I am and what I've accomplished? The goal should be to attract and hire the best workforce that can do the best job. Personally I believe that workforce would be diverse because human talent is spread across all types of people and the more diverse we get the more talent we find. I get what they are doing seems like it's a good idea. In fact while I'm trying to come up with my own it was the first thing that came to mind that made things fair! First it was strip the requirements for the job because not everyone has an equal opportunity to gain those. Now it's make sure not to test or interview anyone at a level that requires specific skills. So should public service departments drop their standards to champion for equal employment opportunities or bite the bullet and set the bar high even if everyone does not have a chance of reaching that bar?
HERBIE1 Posted July 4, 2009 Posted July 4, 2009 Here we go again. Crotchity- simple questions: Should the results of a RACE NEUTRAL promotional exam be thrown out simply because no blacks were able to pass it?
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