High Court Rules for White Firefighters in Discrimination Suit

[HERBIE1]

Oh, where to begin ? I am glad your great-great-great-grandfather and every male descendent in your family was a firefighter. My great-great-great granfather or mother for that matter probably would have loved to have been a firefighter, but blacks were not allowed to enter the profession until the 60's (but we arent disadvantaged that every white male firefighter's son and nephew gets hired regardless of their ability because granddaddy worked there).

Nobody in my family was involved in public safety- fire, EMS or police. I waited 5 years to get my job- training brand new people who got on before me simply because of the color of their skin, and/or because they went to the "right" paramedic school. This particular school had a handshake agreement with the department so they could push the minority quotas. When it was first established, that paramedic program was a 2 year associate degree. They couldn't get enough minorities to pass it, so they made it a certificate program- basic gen ed classes. Still couldn't get the minority numbers, so they made it only the bare essentials- paramedic classes only. Again- I taught brand new medics who jumped over everyone else- not because of qualifications, but die to their skin color. Tell me again how racist and excluding this arrangement sounds to you.

I repeat again, you cant expect a race of people that have only been in the educational system of this country for 30-40 years (as a whole group - not individually) to compete with a race of people who have hundreds of years of education in their family.

Huh? So based on your pretzel logic, because I was the first in my family to get a college degree, much less a graduate degree, I should be expected to fail? Are you claiming there is some type of group-think in the black community that precludes individual success?

As far as promotional tests, I am for dropping them. Why not just promote the best employee ? Written tests were created for the sole purpose of suppressing minority candidates. So a white guy makes a 90 on the test and the black guy makes an 85, are you telling me that in and of itself makes the white candidate better ? If you must have a test (especially in the fire department) why not have a written, practical, oral, and a review of the past year's performance (how often they called out or were late, what special projects or committees have they served on). And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

Ah- a proponent of the feel good, "new math" mentality. Don't have any standards or measures of progress or success. Don't give out grades, it hurts little junior's self esteem. Don't correct poor grammar or ghetto slang- call it "ebonics" instead. Don't hold everyone to the same standards- it's not "fair". Don;t have the right answer- it's OK- the effort is what matters. Don't worry, the liberals are so riddled with deep seated guilt- and they don't even know why- that we won't have true "fairness" for a long time in this country. BTW- in our department, you already get extra points simply for being born a minority AND special consideration after the results are in. Problem is, it still isn't enough.

Easy solution: Dispense with all the pretense, convolutions, and new math. If you are a minority and want the job or the promotion, it's yours. No need to file lawsuits, no scores, no grades, or worrying about a thing. Everyone else needs to study and fight for the leftovers.

As long as you don't care about standards or results, then I'm sure you would have no problem with a Grenada Medical school doctor removing your brain tumor vs a Harvard trained neurosurgeon. After all, they both have MD's after their names, right?

[Just Plain Ruff]

And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

Why don't we just spot you 15 or 40 points. You seem to be trying to prove the argument that all blacks are so stupid that they need to get an additional 10 or 20 points.

Is that what you are trying so hard to prove?

[crotchitymedic1986]

Regardless of who was the first to graduate college in your family, your family had access to education since this country was founded. My ancestors were not afforded that opportunity, thanks to your ancestors.

As far as the Harvard versus the Grenada doctor, statistically the harvard doctors may be smarter as a group, but that does not mean that every individual harvard doctor is better or smarter. Which is the problem with your logic on promotional exams. Just because the whites have better scores on a written test regarding job knowledge does not necessarily mean they will be great supervisors. I would argue that the things that are often tested, are the things that a manager needs the least knowledge in. Most employees are counseled for policy violations, not patient care or firefighting issues (when was the last time you were written up because you couldnt do a friction-loss equation ?)

Racism is alive and well -- if you dont believe me just look at this weeks events --- Compare the death of Elvis to the death of Jackson. Both were depressed, drug addicted, child molesters, who destroyed their own bodies, lived weird secluded lives, and basically committed slow suicides. The white guy is a hero, complete with postage stamps of his likeness and a shrine that draws millions of visitors each year; the black guy is a freak. But you guys arent racist.

[tniuqs]

'crotchitymedic1986' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:09 AM' post='218784']

Regardless of who was the first to graduate college in your family, your family had access to education since this country was founded. My ancestors were not afforded that opportunity, thanks to your ancestors.

Blame everyone but yourself for failure .. you are also assuming these coloured F/F actually wanted the positions, maybe they scored poorly because they did not want the promotions and headaches of managing whiners like yourself ?

As far as the Harvard versus the Grenada doctor, statistically the harvard doctors may be smarter as a group, but that does not mean that every individual harvard doctor is better or smarter.

Wrong again, you have no understanding of off shore medical education, this is the stepping stone for many that cannot afford to go to premed Harvard (because of low cost of living and tax breaks for those institutions) heck some even go on to higher levels in other institutes when they prove themselves. I worked in the Commonwealth of Dominica (Ross University) and the educators were some of the best in the world some taught at other more ivy league schools as well ... in FACT one good friend is now completing his residency in DC in trauma Surgery ... meh ... where you take premed has no bearing on "intelligence" btw my friend IS BLACK LIKE YOU, and if I showed him your posts I would not want to be your ass, he wants to become an EMS medical director and I would stand beside him in a heartbeat, not because of his colour but because of his intelligence.

Which is the problem with your logic on promotional exams. Just because the whites have better scores on a written test regarding job knowledge does not necessarily mean they will be great supervisors. I would argue that the things that are often tested, are the things that a manager needs the least knowledge in. Most employees are counseled for policy violations, not patient care or firefighting issues (when was the last time you were written up because you couldnt do a friction-loss equation ?)

If you do not have the conceptual idea applied to friction gain in pulling a hose 4 stories you will fail the real test ... btw you already have.

Racism is alive and well --

Yes it is and you sir promote it !

If you dont believe me just look at this weeks events --- Compare the death of Elvis to the death of Jackson. Both were depressed, drug addicted, child molesters, who destroyed their own bodies, lived weird secluded lives, and basically committed slow suicides. The white guy is a hero, complete with postage stamps of his likeness and a shrine that draws millions of visitors each year; the black guy is a freak.

And crotch you know all of this how ?

Tabloid EMS obviously as your not following what the white people are saying about Micheal.

But you guys arent racist.

But You are Not ?

To ADMIN: When will you sanction or ban this poster for promoting racism on this site ?

cheers

[HERBIE1]

Regardless of who was the first to graduate college in your family, your family had access to education since this country was founded. My ancestors were not afforded that opportunity, thanks to your ancestors.

Bull. As for my ancestors, they were in Europe during the time of slavery so neither one of us is responsible for it. A significant number also came over as indentured servants. Get off the pity pot. Ask the Irish, Poles, Italians, and many other groups how easy it was for them when they arrived here. They lived in slums, were treated as 2nd class citizens, and were forced to take jobs that most would not want- police, fire, sanitation workers, etc.

BTW- YOU deserve NOTHING for what your ancestors went through. NOTHING. If you can figure out a way to directly compensate those people for what THEY went through, I'll be first in line to send a check and an apology. Until then, for the good of everyone involved, let this rest.

As far as the Harvard versus the Grenada doctor, statistically the harvard doctors may be smarter as a group, but that does not mean that every individual harvard doctor is better or smarter.

No, but "statistically", those who go off shore do not have the grades and/or MCAT scores to get in to a traditional medical school here. It's not just about being "smart" , it's about the quality of training.

Which is the problem with your logic on promotional exams. Just because the whites have better scores on a written test regarding job knowledge does not necessarily mean they will be great supervisors.

You need a objective method for evaluation. As soon as you bring personal opinions into it, bias will ensue.

I would argue that the things that are often tested, are the things that a manager needs the least knowledge in. Most employees are counseled for policy violations, not patient care or firefighting issues (when was the last time you were written up because you couldnt do a friction-loss equation ?)

In the case of knowledge- or lack thereof, it can indeed mean injury or loss of life. As an officer, you are responsible for the safety of your company as well as that of any civilians. The more you understand about building construction, potential hazards, tactics, etc, the better job you will do and the better the decisions you will make. Any firefighter who has dealt with an incompetent officer knows the possible consequences of a bad decision and/or a poor leader. As for human resource issues, you need to understand leadership/management skills and techniques in order to be an effective supervisor.

Why are you so afraid of having your knowledge tested?

Racism is alive and well -- if you dont believe me just look at this weeks events --- Compare the death of Elvis to the death of Jackson. Both were depressed, drug addicted, child molesters, who destroyed their own bodies, lived weird secluded lives, and basically committed slow suicides. The white guy is a hero, complete with postage stamps of his likeness and a shrine that draws millions of visitors each year; the black guy is a freak. But you guys arent racist.

And out it comes- someone utters a negative syllable about Jackson, thus it must be racism.

Crochity, you have an odd definition of "hero". Icons, certainly, groundbreaking artists, sure, but hero??

Both Elvis and Jackson were celebrities. Both have fans whose adoration goes beyond all sanity, reason and common sense. Both were entertainers. Both were wealthy. Both were addicted and enabled by hangers on. Both died way too young. I'd love to hear you describe all the "odd" behaviors of Elvis. I don't think you can compare eating fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches with making your home into an amusement park, a grown man inviting kids to his house for "sleepovers", perpetual plastic surgeries, sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber, or hanging your kid out a window as a joke. As for Elvis being a "child molester", you need to be careful. In many places the age thing is not a problem.

BTW-I don't call rappers, dancers, athletes, singers, or actors "heroes", and I defy you to cite where Elvis is hailed as a "hero" by anyone.

[EMT City Administrator]

I do not often express opinions on the site except the opinion that users have the ability to have spirited debates within the confines of the site rules.

Those opinions that are controversial will either be justified by the debate that follows or proved to be irrelevant or unjustified.

There are sites out there that will only allow people with a certain conforming thought processes to participate. This is not one of those places. I have always believed change and education will happen with free flowing debates.

A lot can be learned from those we do not agree with.

[crotchitymedic1986]

George Bush graduated from Harvard --- nuff said. Who said anything about personal opinions ? I suggested that each candidate be judged on his/her prior performance. Leaders do not need to have a title to be leaders --- leadership is action. Those who have been leading in the months/years prior to the announcement of the racist written exam, should be promoted. I have no problem with a written test being part of the criteria, I just don't think it should be the only factor. A good example of this in our industry: If you had been around in EMS 20 years ago, you would remember that the National Registry Exam was not the method of certification; each state had their own test. When states transitioned to the National Registry Test (which was harder), the failure rate increased dramatically. By your arguement and/or method, we should not have any substandard Paramedics in the field, as this test should have weeded them out -- but just like with the promotional exam, the test does not indicate their ability to be a good medic --- nor does a promotional exam prove ones worth as an officer.

[WolfmanHarris]

George Bush graduated from Harvard --- nuff said. Who said anything about personal opinions ? I suggested that each candidate be judged on his/her prior performance. Leaders do not need to have a title to be leaders --- leadership is action. Those who have been leading in the months/years prior to the announcement of the racist written exam, should be promoted. I have no problem with a written test being part of the criteria, I just don't think it should be the only factor. A good example of this in our industry: If you had been around in EMS 20 years ago, you would remember that the National Registry Exam was not the method of certification; each state had their own test. When states transitioned to the National Registry Test (which was harder), the failure rate increased dramatically. By your arguement and/or method, we should not have any substandard Paramedics in the field, as this test should have weeded them out -- but just like with the promotional exam, the test does not indicate their ability to be a good medic --- nor does a promotional exam prove ones worth as an officer.

So you would argue that an objective standard for assessing a candidate should be replaced with an subjective standard based on performance. Yet if management is dominated by white officers and if these officers were unable to design a written test that did not discriminate, how then could you expect these people to realistically evaluate the competency of the candidates, if as you say their racism is so innate that it can't be overcome? If interviews and performance evaluations show that a white candidate was superior to the black candidate would that result be acceptable to you? Short of saying that the black candidate must always be hired regardless of relative competence vs. a white candidate, is there a method of evaluation that will satisfy you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but standardized evaluation is one of the main ways in which nepotism is combated. No longer can friends and associates pad performance evaluations, score interviews high and use influence to ensure that their preferred candidate receives a job. I'm at a loss for how you believe a return to a similar evaluation could be better, other then the current form isn't giving you the desired result.

Crotch, I'm am attempting as much as possible to understand how your emotional connection to this specific issue affects your thinking on this, but your reasoning whenever race comes up continues to be suspect. You filter everything to fit your preconceived notions and use them to justify a stance that is difficult to support. When approached with reasoned objections, the race card gets played and we cannot discuss with you, as based on skin colour alone we are not fit to. It is getting beyond frustrating as there is no real dialogue going on and the more you refuse to engage with reason, the more you discredit your position.

I hope this and other attempts to keep things intelligent has an affect, but I think that instead your own stubbornness will prevent that. We've had this discussion repeatedly from the moment you joined this forum and the frustrating thing is that when race is not at issue you can present yourself as a rational, intelligent debater. There is none of that coming from you in this discussion.

Arguing from the position of inferior numbers is daunting, but when you are the lone opposing view sir, you set the tone of the discussion. Consider that in your reply as you are the only one that can turn this discussion around. I implore you to do so.

Regards,

- Matt

[tniuqs]

'crotchitymedic'

George Bush graduated from Harvard --- nuff said.

So where did Obama graduate from ? dont bother to answer that because it just doest make a point, thanks in advance.

First off this is an international EMS site ... so who cares about a bush anyway he was a goof and so off topic to be idiotic besides unless he was shot down in Granada and some fool rescued him he would not even have passed Political Sciences Grenada.

Besides, I heard you have a new guy in office that IS a true Leader, I like this new Prime Minister that you have, hes got a great sense of humor trying to sell cars I think there made in Detroit ? I could be wrong about that though ...... move on buddy, follow your leader hes a good example ... he does not make excuses he offers alternatives. Hell he even spent his first foreign visit in Canada to meet our President ...

Who said anything about personal opinions ? I suggested that each candidate be judged on his/her prior performance.

You sir have crunched the ethnicity numbers NOT performance issues and from the onset YOU have claimed that the poor black's have been oppressed and based on colour alone and minorities groupings now your back tracking big time. btw colour ... that is how one spells colour in the Queens English learn to spell like the rest of the English speaking world.

I live in Canada as does docharris and I must agree with all of his comments, besides have done a hell of more humanitarian work than you can even fathom and EVEN in your own country! I have felt the discrimination against whites in LA, very unfortunately you perpetuate this prejudice.

Perhaps YOU should choose to stop whining and disagreeing with your own court system and reevaluate why this verdict was reached and how to correct it .... look down the road not where your family came from.

Leaders do not need to have a title to be leaders --- leadership is action.

Agreed Leaders are born to be leaders but seldom do they whine .... they persevere and overcome, don't you copy Ruffs intentional sarcasm and satire its brilliant.

Those who have been leading in the months/years prior to the announcement of the racist written exam, should be promoted.

Singing the same song are we ?

I have no problem with a written test being part of the criteria, I just don't think it should be the only factor.

It was not HELLO ?

A good example of this in our industry: If you had been around in EMS 20 years ago, you would remember that the National Registry Exam was not the method of certification; each state had their own test.

Just 28 years for me... I am still a rookie, I would LOVE to challenge your REMT-P ... Oh wait I have there a joke, hell even Bledsoe laughed when he gave me his Critical Care Book ... he stole much of the info from Canada and OZ .... omg I hope he doesnt read this I will be so in ka ka.

When states transitioned to the National Registry Test (which was harder), the failure rate increased dramatically.

Astounding revelation, increase standards ? OMG why would you do that .. thats craziness.

By your arguement and/or method, we should not have any substandard Paramedics in the field, as this test should have weeded them out -- but just like with the promotional exam, the test does not indicate their ability to be a good medic --- nor does a promotional exam prove ones worth as an officer

.

So quite interested to hear what type of litmus paper you believe is the answer ... perhaps a field level endorsement like we do in Alberta ?

[HERBIE1]

I do not often express opinions on the site except the opinion that users have the ability to have spirited debates within the confines of the site rules.

Those opinions that are controversial will either be justified by the debate that follows or proved to be irrelevant or unjustified.

There are sites out there that will only allow people with a certain conforming thought processes to participate. This is not one of those places. I have always believed change and education will happen with free flowing debates.

A lot can be learned from those we do not agree with.

I thought that request for banishment was tongue in cheek, but whatever. Thanks for putting forth a mature and proper opinion on this. This discussion has been testy- even nasty at times, but I don't feel it's crossed the line.