For all you medic mill haters!

[fireflymedic]

While this is sad, there's long been the transitions from LPN to RN so I'm not overly suprised. It was just a matter of time. There are fully online medic classes waiting in the wings for approval (I'm not sure if there are any active right now or not) so I'm not sure if they will follow suit with this, but I certainly hope not. It's no longer about quality, it's about quantity. Who cares what kind of people we're putting out there when we can put a bunch of them out there and make our money quick while we can? Sad indeed.

[spenac]

While this is sad, there's long been the transitions from LPN to RN so I'm not overly suprised. It was just a matter of time. There are fully online medic classes waiting in the wings for approval (I'm not sure if there are any active right now or not) so I'm not sure if they will follow suit with this, but I certainly hope not. It's no longer about quality, it's about quantity. Who cares what kind of people we're putting out there when we can put a bunch of them out there and make our money quick while we can? Sad indeed.

There are several online Paramedic programs, some tied to colleges. Some actually provide better education than most standard programs others just teach the test. Just like regular school, investigate before you invest. You get what you pay for.

[VentMedic]

There is nothing wrong with many online programs, especially those associated with a college, if done well. They should have access to an educator and student interactions via the internet occasionally. As well, they should be structured with the same time requirements for assignments as the classroom program.

What go Excelsior is the lack of clinical hours. 1 or 2 weeks is not enough when the traditional nursing students are getting 1000 hours of just clinicals with strict guidelines for what must be achieved during that time. This is also where some of the online Paramedic programs fail. They may have a great online portion but might allow the student to pick a clinical site closer to home. That is where the control is lost and even though the paperwork that agency might send in, there is little way of knowing that is actually how the clinical situation will be. It could be an ALS Engine sleepover where the student will have minimal contact as an ambulance with Paramedics may take over the care as well as do the transport.

[Lone Star]

I confess, I was initially attracted to the 'accelerated courses' in order to get relicensed as an EMT so that I could progress into the Paramedic Degree Program.

That was until I learned that inorder to become an EMT-I through one of their courses required LESS time than it took me to become an EMT-B in the first place!

Imagine moving up from ZERO to EMT-I in less time than it takes other people to become a 'lowly EMT-B'.....thanks, but no thanks.

I'm currently in a college program at Savannah Tech for the EMT-B/EMT-I program. Once I complete this portion of the requirements to have at least an active EMT-B license, I can move forward into the Associates Degree program for Paramedic Technology.

Higher price tag for credit hours that may or may not transfer, and minimal education.....I don't think so!

Before anyone decides to hit me in the head with a brick for even getting into the Intermediate program and not just going straight to medic, let me say this in my defense: The course is a 'combined course' (2 quarters for EMT-B, and one quarter for EMT-I). This was the ONLY way to get to a license level that would allow me to work while going to school.

Georgia doesn't normally hire EMT's for anything more than drivers (if the EMT is hired at all). That's why the college combined the courses.

I'm not sure how far the rest of my class mates are going in this field, but I know that I am going for no less than the Associates Degree! Yeah, I've already hit some 'roadblocks' that are delaying my education, but I WILL find a way to 'get around things' and try to 'make up for lost time', but NOT at the expense of the 'directly related courses'.....

[fireflymedic]

Vent -

The clinical portion is my concern and the lack of consistency in the preceptors. You may have one sight which has excellent preceptors and another site which is as you stated a sleepover with minimum contact. You also run the risk of lazy preceptors that will sign off without the students actually doing the skills. There is no opportunity really for the people to establish a monitoring system for every possible site and check the quality of the preceptors if this is an option. Also, I would imagine there is more difficulty in obtaining clinical sites. However, the one concern I do have with the online only classes is there is no lab aspect to them. The students first contact with a procedure comes during clinical time or ride alongs. That leads to a really steep learning curve, and while some students (especially those working within services that are fast paced or aggressive) are exposed to procedures, others in slower services are at a definite disadvantage. I couldn't imagine having never started an IV prior to clinicals, or having to think my way through a cric. It's tough enough to get good experience with great labs, but how do they tackle this issue? I'd be curious to hear. Also some states (ie here) it's difficult enough for established programs to get the required rotations. OR and Morgue are the two hardest due to liability. I wonder if students experience difficulty.

There is one program that I think has a reasonable idea. It is texas based I believe. Started out as a fire academy, but has expanded to the EMS side. They do the online book work, then have students come for a period of time for a "boot camp" to teach the skills then do ride along experience. They end up with Texas certifications and have to request reciprocity from their home state. That itself is not a bad idea if the other online schools had a similar follow up, however FF skills can be taught much more quickly and easier to maintain than EMS skills IMHO. I'd be interested to see what their pass rate is for national registry. I'm completely against the accelerated program idea as I don't believe they cut it, even for students actively involved in EMS through the whole class period. You just can't do it. Granted I'm a product of one, but I felt lacking after graduation and pursued other education following. The only prospect I could see for an accelerated program is for those that had their license at one time and allowed it to lapse within about a 5 year period and were just trying to get it back. Longer than that, I would say completely retake the course like normal due to the constant changes. Just my thoughts for what they're worth.

[spenac]

However, the one concern I do have with the online only classes is there is no lab aspect to them. The students first contact with a procedure comes during clinical time or ride alongs.

Actually again there are quality programs online that require labs. In fact some seem more strict than many standard courses.

As to clinicals again check out the program. Some have stricter clinical requirements than many standard programs.

Online does not = poor education.

Edited July 6, 2009 by spenac

[fireflymedic]

Spenac -

Point well noted, which is why I phrased it as a concern. Some programs are better than others and as I said - I have noticed some places are better than others in my limited experience. As I stated above, I'm no expert on online programs by any means. I'm just curious to see how things works and I do see the biggest problem still being the lack of coordination between the host site and the clinical sites and who establishes the contracts for the sites? The students initiative? The school based on student request? How are preceptors monitored and how are problems addressed between them? That's just my thoughts though. Thing to remember is there is good and bad in everything ! There are some fantastic university programs and some that are sorely lacking.

[ccmedoc]

Students unhappy with Everest's programsay they have not been able to transfer credits to other schools. Most of Everest's courses are part of a statewide course numbering system that makes transferring possible. Everest officials said that if schools reject their credits, those schools are breaking the law.

But, as state regulators require, Everest must tell students that no institution can guarantee its credits will be accepted. Receiving schools have the final say. Several Everest students have discovered that the answer is no.

This is a major problem with the online schools, and community schools operating provisional or unaccredited. Even if they say that they meet all requirements, most legitimate institutions will not honor the credits obtained for transfer. I know a lot of managers who look at the intstitution of learning as a criteria for an interview, let alone a job offer; especially for new grads. The NCLEX pass rates stated are appalling, but revealing.

The same can be said about the online university granting a degree in EMS. If continuing the education is of primary concern, research is in order.

As for ADN to BSN or ADN to MSN, most of these are online based from the university simply due to scheduling problems and educator shortages. These are fully accredited by the nursing board, and meet all criteria. By needing no clinical requirements (existing R.N.) it is much more simple logistically than basic nursing education, where much clinical experience should be obtained.

I seriously doubt if this is a trend, the online nursing I mean, as it will show its shortcomings quickly. Secondary and advanced nursing degrees are a different animal and should not be compared.

Online Paramedic and EMS training is spooky. They haven't even gotten the institutional education down past mediocre training yet..This would be a serious step back; or three or four...

[Kiwiology]

At one point I would have entertained the idea of a fast track or online program; now I can't stand the idea.

New Zealand is somewhat progressive in my view as far as our education system is concerned; the Nursing Council did away with the hospital based programs some years ago and now all new RNs must be a graduate of a Bachelors degree (three years). EMS is doing away with the old tech-school style industry taught diploma for Advanced Paramedics (ALS) to a university taught Bachelors degree of three year duration (an additional year above what was required for the industry diploma).

Most nations I know are progressing towards more education - Canada is either two or three years (PCP/ACP), New Zealand, Australia, the UK and Japan are all three years for thier ALS programs; I know some American systems require at least an AAS (two years) it strikes me that the only nation frought with disparity and piece-by-piece education is the United States.

I can do a 600 hour course out on the plains of West Texas and become an EMT-Paramedic (I had auctually briefly entertained the idea) whereas that same 600 hours is 1/2 the time required here to complete either the lecture, simulation/lab or road time of our Paramedic degree.

An ED RN and myself were having an interesting discussion on my flight to Phoenix; it seems people are "scared" of education!

[emt217]

Well I guess you could say the Paramedic program I'm in is a "Medic Mill" of sorts, but it also holds a very high reputation in the area. It's only one year in length, but most if not all requirements are above and beyond national standards. And the setup, in my opinion, is much better than other local college programs. As an example, Pharmacology at two of the other colleges is a one semester course. My program teaches it the entire year. It's broken down based on what we are currently learning in other sections. If we are covering trauma, we cover medications based on MOI. In cardiology we cover cardiac drugs. Pulmonology we cover respiratory drugs, and so on. It helps to tie the medication into the problem, making it much easier to learn. We are also given a list of 40-50 medications a week to memorize. These are the most common prescribed medications, and we are to learn generic and trade names, as well as its primary indications and contraindications. As our instructor said "Sometimes, the patients drug list is the ONLY clue you have to the underlying condition." Sure, a lot of the drugs overlap, but the repetition makes it easier to learn. Also, in cardiology, most of the other colleges are instructing on 3-4 lead. Ours only covers 12 lead. We get tested multiple times per class day, and have skill check-offs on a 3-4 week basis. During some of my clinical rotations, I have worked alongside some of the students from the 2 year programs, and they seem lost. Now granted, I posted a question in the student section a couple days ago regarding some issues I'm having, but those are related to my being new to some of the procedures, not the program. This is the programs 4th year, and of the previous three rotations, there has been a 90% passage rate on the National on the first try. Yes, I know that only means you can pass a test, but the program isn't geared towards that. Our instructors aren't teaching how to pass an exam, but how to be a competent provider. We are constantly given scenario's in which we most diagnose, implement a treatment, and adjust based upon physiologic changes. We complete a run-form, and in some instances, are given a mock deposition from a local prosecutor. All in all, I'm very pleased with it. It's gained so much local and regional recognition that one of the universities will accept the programs hours, along with their own subsequent CCT-P program, and award an A.S. based on it. While i would have to agree that most one year progs aren't great, I was lucky to find one that really is all it's cracked up to be. Just my 2 cents.