Seattle cardiac-arrest saves

[WolfmanHarris]

Okay. I thought it was odd that they were using V-fib only in their numbers to begin with, but I didn't realize they weren't comparing like to like. Good to know, thanks.

[Ridryder 911]

That is why I am so glad that required statistics will be a part of the new Paramedic scope of education. Maybe, we can also enforce to read more than just is being told.

Even the Fifty Cities report, is full of holes and propaganda hype of some of the statistics given. I recognize that Seattle has done some neat studies and developments (marketing and public relations is one of them).

R/r 911

[Kiwiology]

As part of my degree we had to do a university level stats course; I'd be interested in getting ahold of the raw data and the end product to see what there methodology of calculation was.

Probably some shonkey numbers in there.

[mitchb]

Kiwimedic - I don't think the numbers or the calculations are shonky, rather it is a case of what is included (and more importantly, what is left out). If I recall correctly, most of the research coming out of Seattle only includes witnessed, Vf or VT arrests. As we all know, these are generally the most survivable, so if for example traumatic arrests (which are particularly unsurviable) are excluded, all of a sudden the 'save' rates start looking very good.

Theoretically, all systems should be the same, as they should all be using the Utstein style for reporting, which is a consensus based system to ensure like is being compared with like.

Utstein Style Original

Or more recently

Newer Utstein Style

The impression I get however, based on what happens locally, is that many systems work off raw data that includes all arrests, and the Utstein style is only used at the national or research level.

To quote my epidemiology lecturer;

"That b*tard is lying to me.

How do I know he is lying to me?

Because he's a b*tard."

[WolfmanHarris]

That is why I am so glad that required statistics will be a part of the new Paramedic scope of education. Maybe, we can also enforce to read more than just is being told.

University stats is what turned me from a joint Hons. Phil/Psych major with a Philosophy with an Emphasis in Ethics major. Stats kicked the crap out of me. Anything beyond a t-test gives me nightmares. However I did learn a lot about being fair to one's data.

[zzyzx]

Doc Harris wrote, "Stats kicked the crap out of me."

Yeah, you, me, and everyone else too!

[croaker260]

Slightly off topic, but I think even Dust and I will agree adding Stats to paramedic curricula is a GOOD thing. Wish I had it with my original paramedic course.

[WolfmanHarris]

Slightly off topic, but I think even Dust and I will agree adding Stats to paramedic curricula is a GOOD thing. Wish I had it with my original paramedic course.

Even though I hated stats. Agreed.

[HERBIE1]

Stats, polls, and surveys. They can be skewed to say anything you wish so you need to always dig a bit deeper than polls and maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. Reinforce those numbers with more data, objective and independent opinions, scientific studies- anything to bolster your argument and corroborate your claims.

It's been said before here, evidence based decisions are the only way we can progress. Data justifies new techniques, new equipment, new protocols, and the improvements we want in the delivery of EMS services. Problem is, unscrupulous people may use corrupt or incomplete data and if it puts forth a popular or positive idea, people tend to suspend logic and believe what they want to believe. We have to be better than that.

[Richard B the EMT]

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain, noted American writer.