HOSP-ITALITY ABUSE

[HERBIE1]

Coming from someone who has been on the street myself I can assure you MOST of the people on the street are there by their own choice and actions. The normal people who have a bit of bad luck and are put out on the street seek help and their situation is usually temporary, the bums and drug addicts out on the street have no desire whatsoever to change.

When I was younger my dad volunteered at a homeless shelter in Lee County Florida which I was with him there quite often. So needless to say I have plenty of experience with these types of people.

Its just like that old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink"

True, sub. The dirty little secret here is that many of the shelter beds are not used- except for a couple days with severe cold or heat. In most areas, there ARE plenty of options and resources for people to change their situation IF THEY SO CHOOSE. I'm certainly not diminishing the tragic situations that happen to people, but those are NOT the chronic abusers of the system- the original subject of this marathon thread.

[VentMedic]

Coming from someone who has been on the street myself I can assure you MOST of the people on the street are there by their own choice and actions. The normal people who have a bit of bad luck and are put out on the street seek help and their situation is usually temporary, the bums and drug addicts out on the street have no desire whatsoever to change.

When I was younger my dad volunteered at a homeless shelter in Lee County Florida which I was with him there quite often. So needless to say I have plenty of experience with these types of people.

Its just like that old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink"

So you are now stereotyping all homeless people and were you one that made the choice to be there? If you yourself was on the street, you should have a little understanding of the type of people living there. And, you should also take another look at who is out there. Of course, if your reason for being on the street is personal, you don't have to explain on an open forum. You may have been with a different crowd in a different environment and didn't have or at that time wasn't aware of the issues. And, if you did make the choice to live on the streets, it doesn't mean everyone has. Those with substance abuse and mental issues are not really able to make rational choices.

I guess it is attitudes like this is why some overlooked an elderly person lying in a ditch for 10 days in California and just made assumptions that it was his choice.

Funny you should mention Lee County. I hope you are not putting them into the same class of burnt out EMS providers as yourself and Herbie. Look at how they have hooked up with other services do make a difference.

Edited July 16, 2009 by VentMedic

[HERBIE1]

So you are now stereotyping all homeless people and were you one that made the choice to be there? If you yourself was on the street, you should have a little understanding of the type of people living there. And, you should also take another look at who is out there. Of course, if your reason for being on the street is personal, you don't have to explain on an open forum. You may have been with a different crowd in a different environment and didn't have or at that time wasn't aware of the issues. And, if you did make the choice to live on the streets, it doesn't mean everyone has. Those with substance abuse and mental issues are not really able to make rational choices.

I guess it is attitudes like this is why some overlooked an elderly person lying in a ditch for 10 days in California and just made assumptions that it was his choice.

Funny you should mention Lee County. I hope you are not putting them into the same class of burnt out EMS providers as yourself and Herbie. Look at how they have hooked up with other services do make a difference.

Apparently you even know more about being homeless than someone who has been in that situation.

You really need to get over yourself.

[subliminal]

So you are now stereotyping all homeless people and were you one that made the choice to be there? If you yourself was on the street, you should have a little understanding of the type of people living there. And, you should also take another look at who is out there. Of course, if your reason for being on the street is personal, you don't have to explain on an open forum. You may have been with a different crowd in a different environment and didn't have or at that time wasn't aware of the issues. And, if you did make the choice to live on the streets, it doesn't mean everyone has. Those with substance abuse and mental issues are not really able to make rational choices.

I guess it is attitudes like this is why some overlooked an elderly person lying in a ditch for 10 days in California and just made assumptions that it was his choice.

Funny you should mention Lee County. I hope you are not putting them into the same class of burnt out EMS providers as yourself and Herbie. Look at how they have hooked up with other services do make a difference.

No it was not my choice to be there I was there there due to financial reasons, and because of that I took steps to get myself out of that situation which didnt take long I might add. I dont mean to argue with you but it is true that the majority of people on the streets are alcholics and or drug addicts and have no desire to change. No amount of help is going to do them any good at all until they themselves get to the point to admit they have a problem and want to change. Ask any addiction recovery worker the first step to recovery is you have to admit you have a problem. All the help alot of them want from you is for you to give them money so they can buy another beer or buy their next fix.

Its sad I know but all you can really do is point them in the right direction to where they can get help, the rest is up to them. Subtance abuse, mental issues or not if they dont want help you cant give it to them. By the way are you in Lee County right now? If so are you working for Lee County EMS?

Edited July 16, 2009 by subliminal

[sirduke]

I'll throw a dog in this fight !!!

First, let me ask, why in the very first page of this melee, why did you, Vent, jump on EMT-Ps like a fat kid on a donut? "Seems somebody gots a hateful grudge against the EMT(P)s. (aka Gov. Pappy O'Daniel)"

That aside, yes, we need to make an effort to assist anyone and everyone we can, as best we can, and within the limits of our resources and protocols. I've tried my best to help hundreds of people, and perhaps had a bit of limited success with a few.

But !

As it has been stated, ad nausem, You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. At least not very far. I lost a very good friend to ETOH and drugs, despite being there for him every minute, taking him to rehab, holding his hand, feeding his family, but I couldn't stop the self destructive behavior and it eventually killed him. But I didn't give up.

We have regulars here that we transport almost every shift, our protocols don't allow us to refuse them. We've reported them to social services, who are very familiar with their cases, and they attempt to help them, but to no avail.

So are you saying that I'm just dumping patients on the ER and leaving them to deal with it? I've followed up on so many cases with law enforcement and social services that they groan when they hear my name sometimes.

One of the sad case regulars we had is/was a MA of Lit. who taught at the local college for years, fell into the trap of ETOH and drugs, and ended up on the street as a prostitute, living in an abandoned van. Sober, which wasn't often, she was very literate, funny, and sad about her situation, but would tell you that she couldn't change, and didn't want to change. Drunk, or high, she was a demon, hitting LEOs and EMS, nurses, anyone who got within striking range. She once commented to me that she owed the hospital over 500K, but "they can't get blood out of a turnip".

What I ask you Vent, did I fail to do in my attempts to help her?

You are trying to cast us all as uncaring, lazy, cold hearted bastards, and from reading your post/rants, it seems that no matter what anyone says, you take offense to, deem them as wrong.

My last question for you, do you realize that you are coming over just like Crotch Cricket with his race card bullcrap?

Peace Out

Michael Duke, EMT-P

[VentMedic]

Its sad I know but all you can really do is point them in the right direction to where they can get help, the rest is up to them. Subtance abuse, mental issues or not if they dont want help you cant give it to them.

Actually many of the people on the streets with substance abuse and mental illness are there because the programs helping them have closed when funding dried up. That can definitely skew their own impression of those who now do want to help. And then, when they run into people who are supposed to be healthcare professionals that are borderline abusive to them in the streets, and don't deny that doesn't happen, they lose their perspective of what and who is helping.

Making sure they don't fall through the cracks by starting some type of paper trail or a working relationship with the resources available at the hospitals and in the community is a good start. It may not be much but if just one person does get the help needed to make a difference, it may be another life saved.

I am familar with Lee County EMS since they have strived to make a difference in their communities which has been a benefit to them as well as the people they serve.

Herbie quote

Apparently you even know more about being homeless than someone who has been in that situation.

I have the advantage of knowing many different resources and do not have the financial, subtance abuse or mental health issues of those that are on the street. Even for the many who are now on the street for financial reasons, it may take them awhile to start thinking clearly. Those who have lost everything due to job loss and foreclosure may be in an emotional turmoil. Does that mean we just step over them and stereotype them as some loser in the streets who doesn't want help?

You really need to get over yourself.

You mean I should quit caring and become a jaded, burnt out individual like yourself? No, I think I will continue to provide patient care and do whatever I can to make a difference. I do have the advantage of following my patients and I can see what happens when good prehospital providers and the ED can bring about an opportunity for someone to get off the streets. Sometimes it just takes a little time to make the appropriate documentation on the correct form to be handed to the right person.

[Happiness]

Heres another bone to throw. When the liberal government was elected into BC they proceeded to close all the mental health beds along with the mental health institutions. Where did they all go but on east side of Vancouver. So my question is you all whos fault is it that they are homeless, theirs, Personally im thinking that they had a home and it was taken away from them so where else are they to go. Not all homeless people are there because they are drunks and druggies, alot are there because of circumstances. And one other point that should be made is that when someone has their first drink or drug experience they are not thinking that they are going to a burden on society later on in life.

So when I go to the next etoh call Im going to really look at my pt and think is there something I can do for them today that I may not have thought of the 10000000000000000 times before. I hope those who have lost their compassion and forgotten the original reason that they wanted to be a medic " Find and Remember"

[VentMedic]

You are trying to cast us all as uncaring, lazy, cold hearted bastards, and from reading your post/rants, it seems that no matter what anyone says, you take offense to, deem them as wrong.

Duke, do you read the freakin' posts before you jump on someone who is trying to make a difference? WTF!! I get criticized because I do find ways to implement something into systems that can make a difference. What the hell is wrong with that??!!

You seem to have tried within you system. Is this a systemwide program or is it just you?

And no, I did not call all of you uncaring, lazy, cold hearted bastards. I do however have a gripe with Herbie and CB who just seem to have given up and call any suggestions as useless. Thus they are the ones painting the picture that all in EMS are just like them and want more to jump in to say giving a shit about the homeless is just a waste of time. To them the homeless are just losers who don't want help and anyone stupid enough to believe you could make a difference for even one person is on some do gooder high horse. I live in a city with many homeless but that doesn't mean I have to be heartless and just put my head up my arse so I don't have to get involved in my community which includes healthcare issues for everyone and not just a select few that some in EMS might feel are more worthy than others.

I would like people who are in healthcare or who are seeking a career in the healthcare professions to believe they can make a difference if they are truly in it for patient care. It doesn't have to be just a job of following recipes and waiting for burn out to set in. You don't have to be jaded to work in EMS or any other profession. It is about patient care and caring about those around you even in situations that seem overwhelming.

Edited July 17, 2009 by VentMedic

[HERBIE1]

Heres another bone to throw. When the liberal government was elected into BC they proceeded to close all the mental health beds along with the mental health institutions. Where did they all go but on east side of Vancouver. So my question is you all whos fault is it that they are homeless, theirs, Personally im thinking that they had a home and it was taken away from them so where else are they to go. Not all homeless people are there because they are drunks and druggies, alot are there because of circumstances. And one other point that should be made is that when someone has their first drink or drug experience they are not thinking that they are going to a burden on society later on in life.

So when I go to the next etoh call Im going to really look at my pt and think is there something I can do for them today that I may not have thought of the 10000000000000000 times before. I hope those who have lost their compassion and forgotten the original reason that they wanted to be a medic " Find and Remember"

In this country, we have the same issue. Back in the 70's our mental health programs underwent a similar change. As a result, many people who used to be admitted- at least short term until they were stabilized and medicated- were set loose to be treated as outpatients. Yes, some have ended up homeless as a result of their inability to cope and remain compliant with therapy and medications.

Contrary to what vent medic claims, NOBODY is saying we should ignore these people, NOBODY is saying that nothing should be done, and NOBODY is saying that all homeless are drunks and drug addicts. Problem is, as a prehospital provider, you are kidding yourself if you think you can do what entire teams of social service people cannot.

And no, I did not call all of you uncaring, lazy, cold hearted bastards. I do however have a gripe with Herbie and CB who just seem to have given up and call any suggestions as useless.

Given up- no. Realistic about the options- yes.

Thus they are the ones painting the picture that all in EMS are just like them and want more to jump in to say giving a shit about the homeless is just a waste of time.

I dare you to show me where I said or implied anything like that. Stop building strawmen.

To them the homeless are just losers who don't want help and anyone stupid enough to believe you could make a difference for even one person is on some do gooder high horse. I live in a city with many homeless but that doesn't mean I have to be heartless and just put my head up my arse so I don't have to get involved in my community which includes healthcare issues for everyone and not just a select few that some in EMS might feel are more worthy than others.

Grow up and stop the sanctimonious pontificating. You insist on building strawmen and ignoring what is actually said.

I would like people who are in healthcare or who are seeking a career in the healthcare professions to believe they can make a difference if they are truly in it for patient care. It doesn't have to be just a job of following recipes and waiting for burn out to set in. You don't have to be jaded to work in EMS or any other profession. It is about patient care and caring about those around you even in situations that seem overwhelming.

Pick your battles. Everyone has their pet projects and issues and clearly this is something you are passionate about. Good for you, but to vilify someone because they don't share the same passion for your interest is wrong. Some people are passionate about education, some are passionate about innovative equipment and techniques, others love being politically active, but the bottom line is in our name: EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES. Until we have established an expanded scope of practice, advanced provider licensure, or your specialty, social service provider- then we need to focus on what we have been trained to do. Last time I checked, we can make a huge difference by treating ALL patients with dignity and respect, and solving the complex social, financial, medical, and emotional needs of someone is NOT what we are trained to do.

[VentMedic]

Pick your battles. Everyone has their pet projects and issues and clearly this is something you are passionate about. Good for you, but to vilify someone because they don't share the same passion for your interest is wrong. Some people are passionate about education, some are passionate about innovative equipment and techniques, others love being politically active, but the bottom line is in our name: EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES. Until we have established an expanded scope of practice, advanced provider licensure, or your specialty, social service provider- then we need to focus on what we have been trained to do. Last time I checked, we can make a huge difference by treating ALL patients with dignity and respect, and solving the complex social, financial, medical, and emotional needs of someone is NOT what we are trained to do.

My mistake. I guess somebody has to write you a recipe first. EMS just needs to stay providing first aid and let the other medical professionals try to alleviate the healthcare problems even though those in EMS do have a street view. You are correct that EMS providers are not trained/educated to provide the level of care needed by the homeless and do have little choice but to transport. RNs, NPs and PAs would be the more logical choice to provide care at that level. But, that doesn't mean those in EMS can't bring someting to patient care also instead of "just drive them to the hospital because our protocols say we have to" mentality. It doesn't mean you can't seek out alternatives and see how they will fit into your system. You aren't even reading the other posts to know what else has been done.

Again and again and again, I NEVER said you had to be a social worker. Yes, you only have the training of an EMT but that doesn't mean you can not read, ask questions and see where you CAN make a difference.

Problem is, as a prehospital provider, you are kidding yourself if you think you can do what entire teams of social service people cannot.

Again and again and again, did you not read the posts that state a working effort with other professionals?

In this country, we have the same issue. Back in the 70's our mental health programs underwent a similar change. As a result, many people who used to be admitted- at least short term until they were stabilized and medicated- were set loose to be treated as outpatients. Yes, some have ended up homeless as a result of their inability to cope and remain compliant with therapy and medications.

Back in the 70s? Some ended up homeless? Where are you that you are so out of touch? Do you not watch the news on TV or a computer? Read a newspaper? You do realize this country has serious health care issues and the mental health programs were the first to feel serious cutbacks. Honestly, where have you been that you don't know any of this? This isn't just in one city but in many cities in many states throughout this country. It even affects Small Town, USA.

Edited July 17, 2009 by VentMedic