Responding with lights and siren

[Christopher.Collins]

What is reckless about not stopping at red signals when there is no traffic, or when all traffic has?

Unless every single intersection in your jurisdicition is an open feild where you can clearly see a couple hundred yards down every cross street... everything about it is wreckless. If you have ever even driven a motorvehicle, or rode a bicycle in your life youll know that sometimes there are obejects and buildins right on street corners. Have you been living in a buble?

And the Colorado statute also follows that reasoning.

Please feel free to provide specific quotes from your government and feel free to include links to these quotes... FROM LAWS and OFFICIALS... not disscusions with other peers you work with.

Are you going to travel only 10 mph over the 75 Speed Limit and have others wanting you out of their way?

Been doing it for six years, havnt killed hurt or endangered anyone yet.

EDIT (Added the following to my above statement): To further elaborate, an emergency vehicle in lights and siren respons may, if safe to do so, travel about 10-15 mph above the posted speed limit. A regular motorvehicle may not travel above the posted limit. If they are passing you... and this does happen all the time, then they are breaking the law. It is your responsibility as a SAFE driver to be aware of what else they may or may not do. (End of added statement).

Speed limits are conservative - meaning they are posted lower than what the road is engineered for. In open expanses on dry level Interstates, 15 mph over the speed limit is no problem.

Ill be sure to site you as a reference if I ever get pulled over.

Taking right of way from others, causing traffic impediment and disruption, makng others move off the roadway possibly causing vehicle damage or tire damage, exposing others to hazards - is not justified for fake runs.

Finally a semi intelligent statement... its not justified at all though not just on fake runs. In terms of driving we shouldnt be forcing anyone to do anything regardless of an emergency or not. IF they dont want to yeild, the best you can do is pick up your radio and request PD.

Robert, could you please post some studies on how running red lights and speeding improves patient outcomes?

Very well done sweetie... but ummm hes not concerned about patient outcome. Hes concerned about polution, break and engine wear.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Christopher.Collins

[Richard B the EMT]

Does anyone deliberately NOT stop at a red traffic signal or stop sign in their POV? Then why, when you don't know if the cross street has any traffic coming, would you just rush out?

The old story goes that I was riding with a friend, when we came to a red traffic light. My friend just breezed through without slowing down.

"Why did you do that?"

"That's how my brother taught me to drive."

We came to another red traffic signal, and again, he jetted through. On seeing my concerned look, he again stated "It's all right, I told you that is how my brother taught me to drive".

Then we came to a green traffic light. My friend jammed on the brakes, and skidded to a halt!

"NOW what?"

"My brother might be on the road!"

Personal experience: Traveling in the center lane of the three in my direction of travel, on the famously infamous "World's longest and narrowest parking lot", the Long Island Expressway, at L&S status, when a driver ahead of me realized there was a vehicle with red lights and siren behind him, just jammed on his brakes. My partner panic stopped, and there were a lot of screeching brakes and tires from easily 50 or more other vehicles, as we somehow all avoided a chain reaction crash, or running off the road, or into the divider, including numerous "18 wheeler" tractor/box combination trucks.

All jokes aside, when driving any emergency vehicle, drive like you are expecting the unexpected, as you usually will not be disappointed.

[Lone Star]

What is reckless about not stopping at red signals when there is no traffic, or when all traffic has stopped?

Is it contrary to some religious ritual?

If you consider SAFETY (yours and the general public's) a 'religion', then YES it IS 'contrary to some religious ritual'!

Have I espoused that one may "run" through such intersections?

We DO NOT stop at RED signals unless we cannot see if all cross traffic has stopped.

Umm....YEP!

Merely that following some ridiculous "rule" that lengthens response time, causes more traffic impediment, more wear and tear on the vehicle, more fuel use and pollution by everyone - is needless.

And the Colorado statute also follows that reasoning.

The increase in 'response time' is negligible at best, and as far as the 'wear and tear' on the vehicles from stopping at intersections until you are ABSOLUTELY SURE that it's safe to proceed is far LESS than the damage inflicted upon said vehicle as you get 't-boned' because you blew through an intersection before it was safe to proceed!

I'm fairly certain that Colorado advocates the SAFE operation of emergency vehicles. YOU however, only advocate the undermining of that goal, and you should be disqualified from EVER operating an emergency vehicle!

Not only that, but the same amount of 'wear and tear' would be inflicted on the vehicle if you were proceeding in a 'non emergent' mode of travel!

Are you going to travel only 10 mph over the 75 Speed Limit and have others wanting you out of their way?

Frankly, it doesn't matter if they want you out of the way or not. The whole point of ANY 'EVOC course' is to emphasize SAFE operations of an emergency vehicle. Something you have CLEARLY FORGOTTEN, even with your 'credentials'!

If conditions allow, there is no problem with making better time to the scene than to follow some assigned speed limit.

Weather conditions only play a part of safely operating an emergency vehicle. There is another 'catch phrase' that you're blatantly ignoring, and that is to 'drive with due regard', which means that you MUST drive that emergency vehicle in such a manner that you do NOT put the general public at risk. Again something that you have CLEARLY FORGOTTEN.

Remember, you're driving an AMBULANCE, not a freaking RACE CAR! There is NO 'prize' in getting to the scene 'faster' if you have to do it in an UNSAFE manner!

Speed limits are conservative - meaning they are posted lower than what the road is engineered for.

In open expanses on dry level Interstates, 15 mph over the speed limit is no problem.

Just because the road has the same rating as the Autobahn, doesn't mean you HAVE to drive like you're on the Autobahn!

They are FAKE runs. Not emergencies. Taking right of way from others, causing traffic impediment and disruption, makng others move off the roadway possibly causing vehicle damage or tire damage, exposing others to hazards - is not justified for fake runs.

They can accomplish the same practice without lights and siren.

So, if I read this statement correctly; your biggest 'complaint' about these 'fake runs' is because they put the general public at risk? Isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing by advocating this insane driving policy?

Likewise, I dont' stop if we see everyone has stopped.

It just slows our progress and makes everyonelse wait longer.

We don't stop unless we need to.

Since you cannot GUARANTEE that all other vehicles WILL stop, you're just BEGGING to be hit, or hit someone else! You sir, are an accident waiting for a place to happen!

Hitting another vehicle while zipping merrilly along at 90+ mph is a sure fire way to KILL someone! Just what do you think is going to happen when you cream a minivan full of kids being chauffered someplace?

As far as the 'polution', how much more polution are you creating by burning enough hydrocarbon fuels to maintain that 90+ MPH?

Your 'explanations' only serve to continually prove what kind of an ID 10-T you REALLY are!

Ruffles,

I should have followed your lead, and just removed myself from this entire discussion! But NOOOO, I just HAD to continue...

Unfortunately I had to learn the hard way! I think Dr. Alan R. Zimmerman said it best:

Never Argue With An Idiot. He'll Drag You Down To His Level And Then Beat You With Experience.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Lone Star

[Robbyemt]

New York State's Vehicle and Traffic Law #1104. operate your vehicle with "due regard" for any and all other traffic on the roadways.

Exactly the reason why it will always be your fault in the event of an accident. We respond HOT to 99% of all our calls only to transport COLD to the ER. We have to honor our contracts which have a 6 minutes response time so HOT it is. We only get downgraded if a chief gets on scene and has enough common sense to do so which is not that often. Even more ridiculous is when we go with one town that has 2 different fire companies and we start COLD, get upgraded to HOT, then get cancelled once their rig responds. This happens on a regular basis so when they upgrade us, nobody bothers turning on the lights because we know what's going to happen. Like the boy that cried wolf. That's the politics of EMS at work.

Rob

[speedygodzilla]

New York State's Vehicle and Traffic Law #1104. operate your vehicle with "due regard" for any and all other traffic on the roadways.

Exactly the reason why it will always be your fault in the event of an accident. We respond HOT to 99% of all our calls only to transport COLD to the ER. We have to honor our contracts which have a 6 minutes response time so HOT it is. We only get downgraded if a chief gets on scene and has enough common sense to do so which is not that often. Even more ridiculous is when we go with one town that has 2 different fire companies and we start COLD, get upgraded to HOT, then get cancelled once their rig responds. This happens on a regular basis so when they upgrade us, nobody bothers turning on the lights because we know what's going to happen. Like the boy that cried wolf. That's the politics of EMS at work.

Rob

Someday there may actually be a "wolf."

[Richard B the EMT]

There is a "policy" in our overall EMS community, that of responding "L&S" to calls, and on determining the condition(s) of the patient(s) will assist in the decision to go "L&S" to hospital, on the philosophy that when the crew arrives at the scene of the call, technically, the emergency is over.

I do not state if I hold to that, but do state many do, or their local protocols mandate that philosophy.

[maine_emt]

The company I work for dispatches calls with a tiered response based on the symptoms reported by the caller. About half the calls we respond to with no lights and sirens and only when the patient's life is in danger will we risk running lights and sirens to a scene.

When running lights and siren the company policy is when approaching any intersection to slow down to a speed one can quickly stop if needed. We also rarely use lights and sirens when transporting to the hospital.

Recently my company has installed computers in the front of each truck with GPS and dispatches on them, the computers are extremely helpful and have reduced our radio traffic, but also have a system that beeps when we are at 73 mph and sends our Operations Director an email when the truck reaches 75 mph. We frequently do out of town transfers from 30-150 miles away and many providers like to push the speed limit and most find the speed limits annoying at best.

Just my two cents.

Edited July 31, 2009 by maine_emt

[medic15401]

QUOTE (robert gift @ Jul 20 2009, 01:39 PM) If you can see far enough ahead that no left turn lanes are available, or you can't get to them, just get on the opposing traffic side of the raised median and proceed against traffic.

Not unsafe at all.

Opposing traffic, now after their intersection and moving, cannot help but see you, and, since you are in their lane 1, will most often move to their right.

Much easier and more expedient than trying to get stopped vehicles ahead to clear a path.

Many stopped drivers are afraid of moving into other vehicles or objects, even when you can see they have adequate room.

Also, you don't encourage vehicles ahead to pull forward into the intersection in harm's way, though they are legally allowed to do it.

We silence the siren as soon as we can see drivers are aware of the EV.

No use "yelling" at them - which is what a siren is doing. They know you're there.

Lakewood FD was responding eastbound.

I was told they came up behind an eastbound vehicle in lane 1 stopped for his RED signal.

He moved forward and was broadsided by a southbound vehicle with GREEN and killed.

Firefighters did not like my confonting why they did not just go around the median

and take the hazards of trying to get through, themselves.

Instead, they "coerced" the citizen to move out of their way.

Nonsense about saving minimal time.

We save A LOT of time not having to wait in line for traffic signals which may take two cycles to get through. Sometimes three cycles for left turns.

Speed does not save much time, and it is not worth the risk.

robert do you really believe what you wrote?

going into oncoming traffic is a sure fire way to get hit. Even though you can see far away does not mean that other drivers who you are coming at directly in their lanes of traffic can see you. I had to investigate a mva with our ambulance service many years ago that the crew drove into the oncoming lane of traffic. The driver of a small car said she didn't see the ambulance because of the sun in her eyes and she hit the ambulance head on. Two crew members injured, 3 people in her car injured. Your advice that it's "not unsafe at all" is Bad advice.

We do not save A LOT of time not having to wait for traffic signals, The time you save will may be 30 seconds or so but pushing people through the intersection or causing Granpa Jones slam on his brakes at the intersection and subsequently causing Mother Baker to hit him with her car is not worth the risk to other drivers. Most people cannot hear the sirens even with no radio on until the sirens get to less than 100 or so feet away. couple that an airconditioner going or a stereo blaring and there is no way you will be heard.

And you should never force another vehicle out into oncoming traffic in order to get out of your way.

You are ultimately responsible for any action that you cause. If you force a car out into the intersection just so you get through that pesky red light and that car gets creamed by a semi or another car the damnit, YOU are the root cause of their accident and you will be held liable (or should be) for their accident.

Please think before you post in the future, the advice you gave above was just plain BAD!

SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO TAKE A CEVO III (CERTIFIED EMERGENCY VEHICLE OPERATION) CLASS. VERY SOOOOOON!!!!!!

[robert gift]

going into oncoming traffic is a sure fire way to get hit. Even though you can see far away does not mean that other drivers who you are coming at directly in their lanes of traffic can see you. I had to investigate a mva with our ambulance service many years ago that the crew drove into the oncoming lane of traffic. The driver of a small car said she didn't see the ambulance because of the sun in her eyes and she hit the ambulance head on. Two crew members injured, 3 people in her car injured. Your advice that it's "not unsafe at all" is Bad advice.

Yes, we have sunrise and sunset situations where the sun is directly in line with east-west streets.

As autumnal equinox is nearing, we're watching for such situations.

If we see a vehicle coming at us, we stop.

If the vehicle hits us, it is that driver's fault for blindly driving into a stationary object - the same as rear-ending a stopped vehicle ahead.

But legal blame is not the issue. Preventing a collision or mishap in the first place, is.

We do not save A LOT of time not having to wait for traffic signals,

We save MUCH time when you tally all the intersections.

With backed-up traffic it may take more than one signal cycle to get through an intersection.

So even if only 45-second cycles, plus time it takes vehicles to start up and be moving, the time adds up.

Speeding in urban/suburban traffic is where not much time is saved. Speeding there is not worth the risk, pollution and wear and tear.

At an occupied intersection with a green signal, we slow to the speed limit or less if situation (confusion) necessitates. (A family was killed when the drunk father pulled forward through a red signal into the path of a responding Aurora Fire truck.

In active School Zones we slow to the required speed limit - or less as the situation dictates.

The time you save will may be 30 seconds or so but pushing people through the intersection or causing Granpa Jones slam on his brakes at the intersection and subsequently causing Mother Baker to hit him with her car is not worth the risk to other drivers. Most people cannot hear the sirens even with no radio on until the sirens get to less than 100 or so feet away. couple that an airconditioner going or a stereo blaring and there is no way you will be heard.

Exactly what I have been stating.

You cannot count on the siren. Deaf drivers, drivers "deaf" from loud stereos in better sound insulated air conditioned vehicles, etc., may never hear it.

And drivers hearing the siren and looking everywhere for it as they continue.

And drivers who do not know what these "spaz" and gimmick sounds are.

Wail and Yelp are better perceived than gimmick sounds.

Yelp tends to panic some drivers. We use it when Wail seems not to be working.

We do not do the 'Yelp at intersections' nonsense.

And you should never force another vehicle out into oncoming traffic in order to get out of your way.

Exactly. This is why is it best to prefer, in order:

1. left open thru-lane

2. open lefturn lane

3. an open thru-lane or righturn lane -even if right of occupied lanes (be ready for someone clearing right)

4. going into opposing traffic lane #1

When turning right at a red intersection, I prefer the right turn lane with no siren so drivers ahead can continue right turns on red. (With siren, they may freeze and no one moves nowhere not no how!)

You are ultimately responsible for any action that you cause. If you force a car out into the intersection just so you get through that pesky red light and that car gets creamed by a semi or another car the damnit, YOU are the root cause of their accident and you will be held liable (or should be) for their accident.

You are asking for right of way. The driver is not required to move forward and get hit (as the motorist killed in front of Lakewood fire truck was).

Nonetheless, he panicked (did they have Yelp sounding?)and did not wait for cross-traffic to stop.

This is why we prefer opposing lane #1 rather than pulling up behind someone stopped at their red signal.

You, not they, take on the risk of getting cross-traffic to stop.

We drive GENTLY, PREDICTABLY, and courteously with as little use of the siren as possible.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Exactly. This is why is it best to prefer, in order:

1. left open thru-lane

2. open lefturn lane

3. an open thru-lane or righturn lane -even if right of occupied lanes (be ready for someone clearing right)

4. going into opposing traffic lane #1

When turning right at a red intersection, I prefer the right turn lane with no siren so drivers ahead can continue right turns on red. (With siren, they may freeze and no one moves nowhere not no how!)

You are asking for right of way. The driver is not required to move forward and get hit (as the motorist killed in front of Lakewood fire truck was).

Nonetheless, he panicked (did they have Yelp sounding?)and did not wait for cross-traffic to stop.

This is why we prefer opposing lane #1 rather than pulling up behind someone stopped at their red signal.

You, not they, take on the risk of getting cross-traffic to stop.

We drive GENTLY, PREDICTABLY, and courteously with as little use of the siren as possible.

END Robert's quote******************************************************************************End Quote

gently, predictably and coureously yet you run through red lights if you think the intersection is clear, you drive into oncoming traffic but you say you only do that when there's lots of room. Whew, keep spouting that nonsense and believing it will only make you sorry in the end.

If you push someone out into traffic, even though you didn't ask them to go into traffic is still YOUR FAULT. You come up behind someone at a stop light and nearly every person (good driver or bad) will try to get out of your way. Sometimes they will pull ahead and then to the right and sometimes they will go into oncoming traffic or into cross traffic and in the end, you will probably not be found at fault in a traffic citation or traffic court but in the court of public opinion and civil court you WILL Lose.

If you go into oncoming traffic it is your fault NO MATTER WHAT? You are not given carte blanche to drive any the hell way you want to. You are not given the right to go into oncoming traffic. Any EVOC instructor will tell you that the oncoming lanes of traffic is the last route you want to go. If you get in a wreck going the wrong way you might as well tell your service how much of a check you want them to write.

I'm surprised that this has gotten this far.

Robert, I hope that you never get in a wreck. If you do I hope that the plaintiff's attorney never comes here to see your posts. They will tear you up one way and down the other. Everything you have written has provided us a detailed look into both your driving habits and the driving policies of your agency.

You are the one who was so upset about the bad driving policies of the Brits yet you have advocated just as dangerous a policy here on your driving.

That in layman's terms is "the pot calling the kettle black"

I am sure you are a good kid, one who might be able to be retrained by an EVOC class or just a nice talking to by a state trooper.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Ruffems