Chopper Down

[Pave-Exile]

However, we are not comparing RW to FW aircraft.

Take care,

chbare.

OK, outside the FW camparison, allow me to restate:

A helicopter is an inherently dangerous form of transportation. While it is mechanically reliable, mission and environment combine to create hazard which is mitigated (somewhat) by pilot skill and crew training.

Sorry to seem touchy, but the assumption of safety leads to complacency which is VERY bad in helo ops.

Heck, I know folks who willingly wear polyester while flying....

v/r

Geoff

[FireMedic65]

OK, outside the FW camparison, allow me to restate:

A helicopter is an inherently dangerous form of transportation. While it is mechanically reliable, mission and environment combine to create hazard which is mitigated (somewhat) by pilot skill and crew training.

Sorry to seem touchy, but the assumption of safety leads to complacency which is VERY bad in helo ops.

Heck, I know folks who willingly wear polyester while flying....

v/r

Geoff

you're a heli pilot? You may be the first heli pilot on here! That I know of at least. Welcome to the city by the way

[Pave-Exile]

you're a heli pilot? You may be the first heli pilot on here! That I know of at least. Welcome to the city by the way

Thanks! Didn't really mean to get spooled up with my first post. I survived a crash and burn (literally) due to rampant paranoia on my part and always training for the worstcase... So I want everyone to think and train for fire, underwater egress, etc. Always in the back of your mind: What'll I do if...

It's about going home at the end of the shift.

v/r

Geoff

[FireMedic65]

Thanks! Didn't really mean to get spooled up with my first post. I survived a crash and burn (literally) due to rampant paranoia on my part and always training for the worstcase... So I want everyone to think and train for fire, underwater egress, etc. Always in the back of your mind: What'll I do if...

It's about going home at the end of the shift.

v/r

Geoff

Well, there is often heated debates here on just about anything, no worries. Sorry to hear about your misfortune but glad to hear you made it through.

I have been and always will be pro training, as you will notice with a lot of people here on this forum. We never stop learning in medicine, and it should not stop there. But that's another discussion

[VentMedic]

MedStar has had a couple of issues during the past year. This was one recent headline for them just a couple months ago. Unfortunately the newslink from the flight site is no loinger working.

Night Vision Goggles unused for 4 years

on Monday, April 20 2009 @ 09:18

Lee County MEDSTAR (FL) apparently purchased Night Vision Goggles for their helicopter 4 years ago but they have never been utilized.

[fireflymedic]

Pav - welcome to the boards, nice to have the input of a pilot and EMT on here. Unique perspective that's provided on other boards, but not seen here. You do make a good point in saying there are alot more ways to literally screw up in a helicopter. There is a statement I read elsewhere that stated "anything that screws its way into the sky flies according to unnatural principles" - much is to be said to that (and to who has that posted on their sig line if you are on here great line and I looked to quote it but unfortunately couldn't find you - so please don't hate !)

Vent - I would have serious reservations about flying with a department that had access to safety technology such as NVG and chose not to train their pilots on it for appropriate use for 4 years. I too read the article, and while I don't know the entire situation, there is some concern there. As others have stated we won't know the full results from the inquiry and it's irresponsible to speculate as to causes before the NTSB report is released. It may truly have been something beyond their control, it may not have been. We don't know and it's not right to condemn where we don't have full knowledge. However, I would have even greater reservations with a program that provided NVG, but didn't provide the training for their pilots. That could be an even greater danger.

I'm going to hold further comment on this until more is revealed.

[chbare]

Again, my point seems to be taken out of context. A helicopter is in fact designed to fly and flying can be safe. However, it is the human condition in most cases that make it unsafe. Therefore, I am not assuming safety. I am simply stating the problem is not typically with the helicopter, it is with the people in the helicopter and on the ground.

Take care,

chbare.

[fireflymedic]

Again, my point seems to be taken out of context. A helicopter is in fact designed to fly and flying can be safe. However, it is the human condition in most cases that make it unsafe. Therefore, I am not assuming safety. I am simply stating the problem is not typically with the helicopter, it is with the people in the helicopter and on the ground.

Take care,

chbare.

Your points were well noted. Whether human or mechanical there are more risks involved simply from the aspects of most helicopter flights with incidents of recent crashes involving everything from mid air collision, to brownout, to entanglement with power lines, to blade issues. You don't typically get airports with nice safe landing strips - you get rooftops, fields, and roadways for landings. Just food for thought so there is just more risk without arguement. However, human error can be applicable to both FW and RW and both can be quite safe with good training.

[paramedicmike]

Actually, I have to disagree here (as the admitted "new guy" :-)

Helicopters ARE inherently more dangerous than fixed wings. While the aerodynamics are "sound" they have more ways to screw up (F/W can only stall in one direction, helos can stall in several). Then there is the environment they are operated in...

While I agree that mechanical issues aren't a primary cause of accidnets, it's only one part of a "system" .

If it weren't for the fact that helos can do really cool things, I'd never set foot in one.

And I fly the dang things for a living.

v/r

Geoff

Welcome to the City.

Your post only seems to reiterate chbare's post. All those extra ways to "screw up" are not the result of the aircraft or the physics behind it. Those extra ways to screw up are a result from the pilot at the controls.

I am glad to hear that everyone is ok. Two pilots with whom I have previously worked now fly for the program in question (although neither were involved in this incident). So this hit rather close to home.

And I must object to the thread topic as well. We did not lose anyone in this incident. Saying we lost one of our own was an exceptionally poor choice of words because my first thought was, "Dammit, how many were killed *this* time?".

-be safe

[Pave-Exile]

Welcome to the City.

Your post only seems to reiterate chbare's post. All those extra ways to "screw up" are not the result of the aircraft or the physics behind it. Those extra ways to screw up are a result from the pilot at the controls.

Actually, many of the extra ways to fail are a direct result of the aerodynamics of rotary-wing flight. Power settling, vortex ring state, loss of tail rotor effectiveness, retreating blade stall, et al, are not available to f/w folks.

And while a neglegent pilot can increase your chances of ending up in one of those situations, factors outside the pilot's control can be causal as well.

There are a lot more moving parts as well: every lifting surface doubles as a control surface and requires constant motion (the angle of attack of each main rotor blade changes continually as it rotates), so any mechanical failure is potentially bad (helos have catastrophic rotor issues far more often than wings fall off airplanes)

I am saying that helos have a LOT of failure points: mechanically, environmentally, and from the nature of the mission. This is the danger inherent in a helo.

And this is all before you get into the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the crew. How's their instrument currency (or even their background... lots of helo pilots are weak on instruments) NVGs? I don't takeoff in the daytime without a set (just in case I'm out late... I'm scared of the dark :-) BUT, if you don't have really good training and practice, they can scare you (or worse, give you a false sense of confidance) NVGs "Don't turn night into day", they work in a different spectrum, which can throw folks.

Harry Reasoner said it best:

The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an airplane pilot and why, in general, airplane pilots are open, clear eyed, buoyant extroverts, and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to.

Harry Reasoner, February 16, 1971

v/r

Geoff