Should We Have Transported...?

[VentMedic]

What makes you think he will be held liable? This guy is doing a ride along only as an observer for an interview. I do not see where he is responsible for the medical care.

That could be true if the person is a student or lay person and holds no medical license.

[aussiephil]

funkytomtom - - using this for a class project. Got responses from ex and inexperienced B's and I's, some volunteer, some part-time, some full-time, from rural to urban areas. If you send me a private message with email address, I can and been authorized by the individuals to send you their responses. Might be fun to see the differences. P_Instructor

P_Instructor. You can be our hero. Your statment should have offended most here. Your reference to those responding as

ex and inexperienced B's and I's, some volunteer, some part-time, some full-time, from rural to urban areas.

is offensive. Most of these people have tremendous experience in dealing with trauma, medica & Mental Health issues. They do not however have their head in their ass thinking they are better than others because they are instructors.

The simple fact that this person has admitted to taking 20 tablets, regardless of what they were is indicitive they wanted to commit self harm. Further, the presense of ETOH, or any other drug for that matter, is a second factor & this patient needs a full mental health assessment & the threat should be taken seriously.

[P_Instructor]

P_Instructor. You can be our hero. Your statment should have offended most here. Your reference to those responding as is offensive. Most of these people have tremendous experience in dealing with trauma, medica & Mental Health issues. They do not however have their head in their ass thinking they are better than others because they are instructors.

The simple fact that this person has admitted to taking 20 tablets, regardless of what they were is indicitive they wanted to commit self harm. Further, the presense of ETOH, or any other drug for that matter, is a second factor & this patient needs a full mental health assessment & the threat should be taken seriously.

Aussie, I am not comprehending your statement. What is this 'hero' dung? This was a simple message to offer tomtom differences of opinions, from a variety of background in EMS, to his initial question. There was no, and I still can't see what offenses you are referring too. Why refer to me as 'hero' when really it probably is 'ignoramas'.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Plain and simple the patient should have been transported.

You have a phone call to a hospital with suicidal threats.

YOu have a patient who admits to taking 20 aspririn and probably not admitting to the entire bottle

You have a patient who has admitted to drinking lot's of alcohol.

The medic in charge was incorrect in letting the patient refuse. End of story.

Do we need to be reminded here that patients who are suicidal are pretty damn good liars.

How many times has a suicide patient come into the er or to the ambulance and after lab tests run came back with multiple substances in their system besides the one they claim to have taken?

How many times has the suicidal subjects story changed even from one minute to the next.

Suicidal subjects are notoriously unstable otherwise why would they have tried to kill themselves in the first place. To get to the place where they feel their only option is to kill themselves proves an underlying instability that must be dealt with through medical and psychiatric treatment.

To do less is wrong on our part.

[ERDoc]

Let's also keep in mind, this is America and everyone has the right to sue everyone for anything. If a lawsuit like this were to go down, everyone whose name appeared on any piece of paper connected to it will be named. Hell, even the hospital and dispatcher will probably be named. Wonderful judicial system we have, let's put personal responsibility on someone else.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Let's also keep in mind, this is America and everyone has the right to sue everyone for anything. If a lawsuit like this were to go down, everyone whose name appeared on any piece of paper connected to it will be named. Hell, even the hospital and dispatcher will probably be named. Wonderful judicial system we have, let's put personal responsibility on someone else.

Listen, if I worried about lawsuits every time I took care of a patient I'd be going nuts. There is always something a patient can take out of context, a skill that they don't think you did right or what not and then bam there's your lawsuit.

I had a physician friend who was sued by a patient for wrongful death. The physician was not at fault but the patient family sued him because he didn't express his condolences over the persons death. The patient was dead dead dead and there was not a thing that the doc was going to do for the patient but because he didn't express condolences the family assumed he did something wrong. They were angry at the whole situation. 45 year old father of 3 just dropped dead of a heart attack and you get the picture.

So if you worry about lawsuits on every call then you will be a very harried provider.

Screw (maybe too harsh) the suicidal patient that threatens to sue you just because you took them to the hospital against their will. Sometimes those suicidal patients appreciate being forced to go. I know of one suicidal patient I transported against their will who told me that had I not have forced her to go that she would have taken the 2nd bottle of MS Contin and ended her life. She said that being forced to go to the ER was the best thing anyone could have done for her.

others not so much though.

[HERBIE1]

What makes you think he will be held liable? This guy is doing a ride along only as an observer for an interview. I do not see where he is responsible for the medical care.

When he said interview for a job, I assumed he was finished with schooling. No license yet, then I agree- you are absolutely correct.

Well that's just great Herbie, the call was made by the hospital which the patient contacted. Apparently he took the pills, and called the hospital "just to have someone to talk to." In retrospect I am in total disbelief we didn't take this guy in. Three issues, 20 aspirin is a suicide attempt no matter what the pt says, even if it wasn't they are still potentially sitting in his belly and bound to cause problems, and third, he was drunk. I will NOT give this crew leader much in the way of trust if I do end up getting hired on. I will now go beat myself up...

Don't beat yourself up too much- you were not in charge. Look at it as a learning experience as how NOT to handle a similar case in the future. Every one of us has been on many calls where we question our actions or inactions. You don't learn unless you ask questions, and anyone who claims to have never made a mistake on a call is either a liar or a fool.

You are wise to be fearful of that crew leader- he/she sounds dangerous. It's one thing to not have essential or enough information to make an informed and accurate decision, but it seems like everything you needed to know was there. There should have been no question what needed to be done.

Questioning, doing QA's and brainstorming only makes you a better provider.

Here's a little tip-always assume that the incident you are involved with could be a potential lawsuit and act accordingly. As doc says, anyone can be sued for anything, and if you are in this business long enough, you WILL be involved in the legal process. If you do your job correctly, hopefully it's only as a witness, and not as a defendant.

Bottom line- document every call as if a lawyer will be reviewing everything you do, because some day, it WILL happen.

[ERDoc]

Listen, if I worried about lawsuits every time I took care of a patient I'd be going nuts. There is always something a patient can take out of context, a skill that they don't think you did right or what not and then bam there's your lawsuit.

I had a physician friend who was sued by a patient for wrongful death. The physician was not at fault but the patient family sued him because he didn't express his condolences over the persons death. The patient was dead dead dead and there was not a thing that the doc was going to do for the patient but because he didn't express condolences the family assumed he did something wrong. They were angry at the whole situation. 45 year old father of 3 just dropped dead of a heart attack and you get the picture.

So if you worry about lawsuits on every call then you will be a very harried provider.

Screw (maybe too harsh) the suicidal patient that threatens to sue you just because you took them to the hospital against their will. Sometimes those suicidal patients appreciate being forced to go. I know of one suicidal patient I transported against their will who told me that had I not have forced her to go that she would have taken the 2nd bottle of MS Contin and ended her life. She said that being forced to go to the ER was the best thing anyone could have done for her.

others not so much though.

Hey, Mr. Grumpy . I meant that if they let the pt sign RMA and then he does go and finish the job. But you are correct too. If they force him to go he can sue also (but not as likely to hold up in court). I also trained in NY where every pt was treated as a land mine just waiting to be stepped on. I don't want to be some skell's lottery ticket.

Edited September 23, 2009 by ERDoc

[Just Plain Ruff]

Hey, Mr. Grumpy . I meant that if they let the pt sign RMA and then he does go and finish the job. But you are correct too. If they force him to go he can sue also (but not as likely to hold up in court). I also trained in NY where every pt was treated as a land mine just waiting to be stepped on. I don't want to be some skell's lottery ticket.

I'm allowed to be grumpi, I have been sleepless for the past three nights trying to keep my collicky new daughter calm during feeding.

[itku2er]

P_Instructor. You can be our hero. Your statment should have offended most here. Your reference to those responding as is offensive. Most of these people have tremendous experience in dealing with trauma, medica & Mental Health issues. They do not however have their head in their ass thinking they are better than others because they are instructors.

The simple fact that this person has admitted to taking 20 tablets, regardless of what they were is indicitive they wanted to commit self harm. Further, the presense of ETOH, or any other drug for that matter, is a second factor & this patient needs a full mental health assessment & the threat should be taken seriously.

Phil I don't that P was being offensive just stating the make up of his class and the way it was presented to his class. Not that he was downing any of them or anything. Just giving us a back ground to his class make up and what the replies were based on I have read the replies from his students and frankly they pretty much hit about every thing we had discussed here and some thoughts were also added.