Firefighters Run Over Patient

[46Young]

The guy did not jump out in front of a moving fire truck. He didn't have a phone to tell the FFs to run over him. There's a seriously busy highway nearby with fast moving traffic that he could have walked out on. Instead, the guy was at a big building known to house people who could provide some first aid. Regardless of his intent or his chosen lifestyle, the FFs failed to look. This could have been an elderly person just as easily who passed out while trying to get medical help. Just because the patient has alcohol on board does not make him any less in need of help than the suited businessman who could also pass out while having a heart attack at that door.

Next time you see a person wanting to jump from a building or bridge, just push them if they don't meet your idea of worthiness for care or a reason to approach with caution. You could then use the same arguments of defense that they asked for it.

No, the guy didn't jump out IFO the truck. He did lay down IFO the medic unit's bay, however, when he could have opted stand up and be seen. If he was only trying to get their attention, why would he reduce his profile so as to be less likely to actually be noticed, increasing the danger of being run over? An elderly person passing out at the bay is quite different than someone deliberately walking over to and then laying down at the same place. The call location would have actually been IFO their bay (or at least station) and not one down the block. Same thing for the businessman. The medics hold blame for not looking, no argument there. I'm assuming that there are no dept SOP's in regards to checking IFO the rig before responding, or these FF/medics would likely be out of a job or at least suspended or something. Actually, your post #22 provides an article that states that there wasn't an existing SOP to that end. Blame the dept for that one. Many SOP's, GOP's and operating manuals are devised to prevent recurrences of prior accidents and fatalities. This seems to be one such case. In the case of the businessman or the elderly person, they wouldn't be deserving of their fate. The victim in the article had an active role in the incident. He suffered the consequences of his actions. That preplanned course of action is what alters the assignment of blame in this case, apparently enough to absolve the crew.

As far as the jumper up, if they end up a jumper down it was their decision. It doesn't mean that I won't try my best to dissuade them, but if they jump, it's out of my hands, and whatever injuries they incur was their own doing.

I never said that the victim in the article has less of a value as a human being than the next person, just that I can't feel sorry for someone who intentionally puts themself in harm's way for no good reason and then succeeds in actually getting injured. What did you think would happen? Life isn't a cartoon where you get run over and in the next frame you're good as new.

Edited October 19, 2009 by 46Young

[VentMedic]

No, the guy didn't jump out IFO the truck. He did lay down IFO the medic unit's bay, however, when he could have opted stand up and be seen. If he was only trying to get their attention, why would he reduce his profile so as to be less likely to actually be noticed, increasing the danger of being run over? An elderly person passing out at the bay is quite different than someone deliberately walking over to and then laying down at the same place. The call location would have actually been IFO their bay (or at least station) and not one down the block. Same thing for the businessman. The medics hold blame for not looking, no argument there. I'm assuming that there are no dept SOP's in regards to checking IFO the rig before responding, or these FF/medics would likely be out of a job or at least suspended or something. In the case of the businessman or the elderly person, they wouldn't be deserving of that fate. The victim in the article had an active role in the incident. He suffered the consequences of his actions. That preplanned course of action is what alters the assignment of blame in this case, apparently enough to absolve the crew.

As far as the jumper up, if they end up a jumper down it was their decision. It doesn't mean that I won't try my best to dissuade them, but if they jump, it's out of my hands, and whatever injuries they incur was their own doing.

I never said that the victim in the article has less of a value as a human being than the next person, just that I can't feel sorry for someone who intentionally puts themself in harm's way for no good reason and then succeeds in actually getting injured. What did you think would happen? Life isn't a cartoon where you get run over and in the next frame you're good as new.

Where did you get such reliable information that you are so CERTAIN this guy was committing suicide? But even if he was suicidal, wouldn't he be worthy of being helped? This isn't about the guy's life issues but the fact that these FFs did not check before hauling arse out of their station. This is a very simple fundamental safety issue that this FD preaches at public safety events to the general public. So why the double standard?

Again, the FDs in Florida provide EMS. The fire stations are often frequented by people who want their BP check which is what one news article reported this guy to saying was his intent to being there. Between being intoxicated and sick, he may not have be able to move quickly. If these FF were hauling arse, nobody in that shape could have moved that quickly.

The guy might also have known he would have been ignored if he just knocked on the front door because he was just a drunk and as a few have implied or actually stated in the comments section of that newspaper. Thus, as the paper also stated he know which bay the "paramedic" truck was in. The ladder truck could possibly have done more damage. He also didn't make the call so he had no idea when the truck would be exiting or if it even would be anytime soon. The witnesses who apparently made the statements that they saw him lay in front of the door made no effort to warn the FFs. They may have even made the call to 911 but failed to state the exact location so they have their own issues to deal with. They made an assumption without knowing his intent or seeing how bad he was injured and/or ill.

Just going on hearsay from anonymous witnesses who failed to warn the FFs or at least place another call to 911 with the patient's location does not mean this patient was suicidal. They just watched. They didn't even have to get close to the guy. They could just dial 911 on their cell phone.

You have NO proof this guy wanted to kill himself with a fire truck. Again, there were many more reliable ways of killing himself very close to that station without waiting for the possibility of the Paramedics getting a call anytime soon.

If we used your logic, there should be a warning campaign to discourage ANYBODY from ever going to a fire station for any type of help. As well, since the fire stations are supposedly safe havens to drop off an unwanted baby, that also should be discouraged as someone might leave the baby at the wrong door in hopes someone would see it since the front door is not always used after sunset.

[VentMedic]

I guess in all fairness I need to add I am not suggesting these FFs be severely punished.

Rather, I think this should be looked at as a safety issue which the FD may have taken for granted before now and did not see a reason to make a big issue out of how get drive the trucks out of the station. Now they have had to put what should have been known all along into writing. Most FFs know they have huge blind spots in many areas of the truck which is why most are cautious when pulling out, backing up and taking corners.

To blame the guy who got run over in this situation is not valid. This was on the FFs home turf and not some random street setting to which they had less control over. If you can not start safety at home, the "public safety" in your job title means very little.

Thus, there are bigger issues here rather than just criticizing the guy's lifestyle. Excuses and blaming the patient won't always work to get someone off when they fail to follow a few basic safety guidelines and especially those they preach to the public.

It is also tragic that the FF driving the truck will have this in his memory. That is unless he has justified this incident in his mind that this guy was worthless and he did the community a favor. I will however give him the benefit of the doubt and not believe the comments at the end of the news article from anonymous people who claim to be his fire department buddies. But, that also means some shouldn't take the words of anonymous witnesses that this guy was suicidal especially if they had a cell phone in their hands and watched the events unfold.

Our job is not to judge a patient's worth by the way they have chosen to live their life. Rather, those who are in EMS and Public Safety should do everything possible to see the patient is directed to the help they need if they fall onto your driveway regardless of the reason. If they have just stumbled and don't need your help, you can still get them pointed in a safe direction until they are out of harm's way from your trucks.

[DwayneEMTP]

With due respect guys, its right there in the article.

Direct findings as reported by a sworn LEO.

And with all due respect to you as well, though I see your point, the quoted text as strongly supports stupidity, arrogance, and/or altered mentation, as it does suicide.

I'm not doubting the officer's sworn statement, but the things that you've deduced from it.

Dwayne

[Richard B the EMT]

Its sad when many utility, oil field company's, etc require that a cone be placed in front and back of their trucks when parked so they have to walk around to get cones out of way. Thus they see that no one and nothing is in front of or behind. Maybe fire should learn from them.

However, things are fluidic, and in motion: After removing the front bumper's cone, and the operator is in back, removing the rear bumper's cone, someone flops down in front of the vehicle, and is not seen by the vehicle operator as the operator starts the vehicle forward. CRUNCH!

Don't think it doesn't happen, as how many parents have walked to the back of their driveway to get into the car, and junior,on the big wheel trike, follows the parent, and ends up under the car, and both end up in the next day's newspapers?

Hell, my next door neighbor's 4 year old is not even supposed to be in my yard, yet he crossed it, and was in my driveway when I nearly backed over him. I am so lucky I saw something in the mirror as I backed in.

[Flasurfbum]

Its sad when many utility, oil field company's, etc require that a cone be placed in front and back of their trucks when parked so they have to walk around to get cones out of way. Thus they see that no one and nothing is in front of or behind. Maybe fire should learn from them.

Maybe PD, EMS, DPW, and you should learn from them.

Why single out fire?

Let me ask, who checks, front and back of your vehicle, every time?

Both personal and work?

Be honest.

[tniuqs]

Flashburn you make an excellent point, when your pointing a finger the other ....wait a minute let me count ... OK the other 3 are pointing back at YOU.

But seeing as you ask ... I check every time on ...... on my rig because after - 20 the block heater plug is on the front and the back of the rig is in a snowbank.

When I am responding on my moose ... well it hates the cone unless there's oats in it and I still cant get the damn thing it to back up anyway ... moose are like that.

Ok can we say we have beaten this horse to death ?

IMHO I think so.

cheers ... live and learn from the errors of others, look before you leap.

[VentMedic]

Maybe PD, EMS, DPW, and you should learn from them.

Why single out fire?

Because the article is about the FD. However, remember how FFs yakked about the St. Lucie county LEO that ran over a patient? The SO took their share of abuse but learned from their mistakes. What about every time AMR does something stupid with one of their trucks like rolling it on I-95? Don't the FFs bust a gut laughing at them?

Let me ask, who checks, front and back of your vehicle, every time?

Both personal and work?

Be honest.

Depending on where the truck is parked, one checks the front and one checks the back.

Of course I also work with helicopters so we MUST check and have spotters for most areas...Period. Safety is not something to be done only if you feel like it. It should be a habit or you could find yourself as the one in harm's way someday with a careless co-worker who is in a rush to play with the L&S.

[spenac]

Maybe PD, EMS, DPW, and you should learn from them.

Why single out fire?

Let me ask, who checks, front and back of your vehicle, every time?

Both personal and work?

Be honest.

I check. The ambulance the back is checked as we approach it. The front is checked by the partner as he opens the garage door. If the door is already open the partner has to cross in front of the ambulance to get in.

Personal I have checked all the way around mine every since an incident when I was a teenager decades ago.

It takes no extra time. And even if it takes 15 seconds which is way more than it does 15 seconds will not make a difference in patient outcome.

Why fire? Because this was a fire discussion, but yes everyone should check before rolling. Even if this guy was suicidal it would have been avoided had the FF's took a quick look rather than being lazy.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I just went out to our ambulance and got in it, opened the garage door and there is no way that you can see what is directly in front of the ambulance on the ground. Anyone who says different is lying.

I will from here on out open the door and look at the ground before I get in the ambulance.

In all fairness to the medics in question, I'll bet that they and everyone else in their department do the same thing, get in, open the door and go out. I'm sure that has changed since the accident.

I would also place a bet that 90% of the people here before this incident also got in their truck and just went without looking in front on the ground.

How many will say they changed their process? and how many here just say that they will change their process and go back to status quo.

To call for the heads of the medics or call for strict discipline is just out of line and an absurd comment.