Firefighters Run Over Patient

[Dustdevil]

To call for the heads of the medics or call for strict discipline is just out of line and an absurd comment.

Tough call. This is clearly negligence, just like if you were driving in the fog unable to see, or shooting at a target unsure of what was behind it. While rolling heads may seem harsh, what is the alternative? You can't just let it go. It reminds me of every time some kid is ejected from a car wreck and killed, and people say the mother shouldn't be prosecuted for not having them in a car seat because "she's suffered enough". I can't buy that. Without personal responsibility being assigned, nothing will ever be corrected.

[aussiephil]

Well said Dust.

Thy need to be made an exaple of, stupidity cannot be countered, this was negligent stupidity.

Lets get them out of EMS, revoke their licences as well. If they havent got enough brains to operate a vehicle in the safety of themselves & the general community, why the hell should they be trusted to assist the sick & infirmed???????????

[Just Plain Ruff]

Well said Dust.

Thy need to be made an exaple of, stupidity cannot be countered, this was negligent stupidity.

Lets get them out of EMS, revoke their licences as well. If they havent got enough brains to operate a vehicle in the safety of themselves & the general community, why the hell should they be trusted to assist the sick & infirmed???????????

HOLY SHITE BATMAN, The intolerance of those on this forum is just incredible. The holier than thou attitude of those on this forum borders or schizophrenia. It's replies like this that make me ashamed to be a member of this forum.

I wake up to this comment on what I consider to be a tragic accident.

Sure, let's call for discipline but to drum these two guys out of EMS for getting in their ambulance, opening the door and then driving out when by all accounts the guy was lying in front of the ambulance door.

People in glass houses. The next time you make any type of honest mistake I'll be sure to call for your heads and make sure you are drummed out of the service.

[VentMedic]

HOLY SHITE BATMAN, The intolerance of those on this forum is just incredible. The holier than thou attitude of those on this forum borders or schizophrenia. It's replies like this that make me ashamed to be a member of this forum.

I wake up to this comment on what I consider to be a tragic accident.

Sure, let's call for discipline but to drum these two guys out of EMS for getting in their ambulance, opening the door and then driving out when by all accounts the guy was lying in front of the ambulance door.

People in glass houses. The next time you make any type of honest mistake I'll be sure to call for your heads and make sure you are drummed out of the service.

Ruff,

I did not call for them to be terminated, but they do need a serious re-training on vehicle safety although I find that ironic since these same FFs preach this very same safety issue to the public at the health fairs. Other departments in urban/city areas have no run over people because they do take precautions. What should have been passed on in their safety training when they were rookies may not have as it has been for others. Are you telling me no one has never told you about checking around you vehicle either at the station or at the scene for bystanders or equipment and doors not secured? This is fundamental safety lessons.

Now they have a written policy or recipe written to tell them step by step how to perform one act of safety.

BTW, did you read the comments under the first newspaper article? What has been said here is definitely not anything near the stance those that signed FF/EMT to their ID. That is incredible as is the fact you do not want the FFs to accept any part of the blame for their their actions. Part of being a professional is admitting you screwed up and learning from it.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ruff,

I did not call for them to be terminated, but they do need a serious re-training on vehicle safety although I find that ironic since these same FFs preach this very same safety issue to the public at the health fairs. Other departments in urban/city areas have no run over people because they do take precautions. What should have been passed on in their safety training when they were rookies may not have as it has been for others. Are you telling me no one has never told you about checking around you vehicle either at the station or at the scene for bystanders or equipment and doors not secured? This is fundamental safety lessons.

Now they have a written policy or recipe written to tell them step by step how to perform one act of safety.

BTW, did you read the comments under the first newspaper article? What has been said here is definitely not anything near the stance those that signed FF/EMT to their ID. That is incredible as is the fact you do not want the FFs to accept any part of the blame for their their actions. Part of being a professional is admitting you screwed up and learning from it.

Vent the comments I wrote were not meant towards you.

Was this something that can be learned from - oh yes indeedee

But for others to call for their heads and those in the article just shows how intolerant we as an industry are.

Train them to check better, but this COULD have been any of us.

[aussiephil]

HOLY SHITE BATMAN, The intolerance of those on this forum is just incredible. The holier than thou attitude of those on this forum borders or schizophrenia. It's replies like this that make me ashamed to be a member of this forum.

I wake up to this comment on what I consider to be a tragic accident.

Sure, let's call for discipline but to drum these two guys out of EMS for getting in their ambulance, opening the door and then driving out when by all accounts the guy was lying in front of the ambulance door.

People in glass houses. The next time you make any type of honest mistake I'll be sure to call for your heads and make sure you are drummed out of the service.

Ruff,

I do not suffer fools well. Their actions show the need for self control & the ability to think, even when the adrenaline is flowing.

They have proven they do not have this capability. If they cannot demonstrate it in the most fundamental part of EMS, driving, then how are they with the administration of drug, the prudent use of lights & sirens.

This is a poor display of what is needed in emergency services, not just EMS. This profession, yes profession, does not & never will need people like this who are too lazy to check what they should. The reliance on the siren as a sole warning is misguided. If vision is impaired, then the second officer should be ensuring the WHOLE departure way is safe.

I stand by my comments

Just an additional thought, isnt the first rul of EMS

"First do no harm"?

Train them to check better, but this COULD have been any of us.

The problem is you cannot train against stupidity

Edited October 20, 2009 by aussiephil

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ruff,

I do not suffer fools well. Their actions show the need for self control & the ability to think, even when the adrenaline is flowing.

They have proven they do not have this capability. If they cannot demonstrate it in the most fundamental part of EMS, driving, then how are they with the administration of drug, the prudent use of lights & sirens.

This is a poor display of what is needed in emergency services, not just EMS. This profession, yes profession, does not & never will need people like this who are too lazy to check what they should. The reliance on the siren as a sole warning is misguided. If vision is impaired, then the second officer should be ensuring the WHOLE departure way is safe.

I stand by my comments

Phil, I think you are wrong.

By all accounts this person was lying directly in front of the ambulance on the ground. I can truly see that when they got in the ambulance they opened the door and drove out.

Do they need to be disciplined, I don't think so. Do they need remedial drivers training yes.

This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[aussiephil]

Phil, I think you are wrong.

By all accounts this person was lying directly in front of the ambulance on the ground. I can truly see that when they got in the ambulance they opened the door and drove out.

Do they need to be disciplined, I don't think so. Do they need remedial drivers training yes.

This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Ruff,

i respect you & your opinion, however, in this case it is all about vision. What if it was a child sitting there playing? Kids are always in a place they shouldnt have been. The fact this was an adult lying down is not relevant. The relevance is their inability to see that there is a potential risk, expecting that the siren would clear the way & driving off.

All for the sake of how many seconds?????????

The reality is ALL EMS is risk vs benefit. Doesnt matter if it is drug therapies, high speed driving or leaving the station. They demonstrated a complete lack of understanding in this case. Driving is the most fundamental skill we in EMS have. It is second nature to us. We have to be able to demonstrate we can make appropriate decisions, if we cannot control our emotions, & adrenaline rush, then we need to look at more than remedial driving. That does not control the lack of though process that has gone on here.

[cosgrojo]

Ruff,

I do not suffer fools well. Their actions show the need for self control & the ability to think, even when the adrenaline is flowing.

Something tells me this was not a case of "adrenaline" bolus. If they were all jacked up responding to a "welfare check" type call, then they truly are the captains of whacker nation. This seems more of a product of laziness and oversight. Regrettable, unfortunate, and avoidable... but it happened. I'll let the powers that be decide the punishment, but I could see this happening to just about anyone. My observational powers are not always at peak levels... so I do have some (not a lot) of sympathy for these guys.

Flasurfbum- I have to check every time I roll in and out of the bays. We don't have garage door openers in that majority of the stations I work at, and the ones that do are "open" only, so we have to be out of the truck to close the bay.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ruff,

i respect you & your opinion, however, in this case it is all about vision. What if it was a child sitting there playing? Kids are always in a place they shouldnt have been. The fact this was an adult lying down is not relevant. The relevance is their inability to see that there is a potential risk, expecting that the siren would clear the way & driving off.

All for the sake of how many seconds?????????

The reality is ALL EMS is risk vs benefit. Doesnt matter if it is drug therapies, high speed driving or leaving the station. They demonstrated a complete lack of understanding in this case. Driving is the most fundamental skill we in EMS have. It is second nature to us. We have to be able to demonstrate we can make appropriate decisions, if we cannot control our emotions, & adrenaline rush, then we need to look at more than remedial driving. That does not control the lack of though process that has gone on here.

I agree that they should have looked but that didn't happen and there apparantly was no policy to do such a thing for that service.

Sure the kid could be there but let me put it another way.

You are on scene, you and your partner are in the ambulance. Partner in back and you in drivers seat. AT the time you got in the ambulance there was no one in front of your ambulance. Now you drive away and Wham you hit a kid. Are you saying that you should have someone always check in front of you whenever you go forward?

What if there is no-one there as an adult to watch your front end. So now you have run over a kid who wasn't there when you got in the ambulance and you have killed or seriously injured the kid. Do you call for your own termination? You better because you are calling for these drivers termination.

Granted they should have looked when they opened the door but unless they were in the habit of doing so I bet it was second nature to just open the door and drive out. Should policies be changed - yes Will they - sounds like they have been.

Should these guys be fired - NOPE should they get drivers training - yep and the entire department should get remedial training.

Is this an accident - yep was it avoidable - yep