Firefighters Run Over Patient

[aussiephil]

I agree that they should have looked but that didn't happen and there apparantly was no policy to do such a thing for that service.

Sure the kid could be there but let me put it another way.

You are on scene, you and your partner are in the ambulance. Partner in back and you in drivers seat. AT the time you got in the ambulance there was no one in front of your ambulance. Now you drive away and Wham you hit a kid. Are you saying that you should have someone always check in front of you whenever you go forward?

What if there is no-one there as an adult to watch your front end. So now you have run over a kid who wasn't there when you got in the ambulance and you have killed or seriously injured the kid. Do you call for your own termination? You better because you are calling for these drivers termination.

Granted they should have looked when they opened the door but unless they were in the habit of doing so I bet it was second nature to just open the door and drive out. Should policies be changed - yes Will they - sounds like they have been.

Should these guys be fired - NOPE should they get drivers training - yep and the entire department should get remedial training.

Is this an accident - yep was it avoidable - yep

Firstly wherever possible we reverse in so we drive out. This is so there is an extra set of eyes on reversing. We also have reversing cameras in vehicles.

Secondly this means that when we get into the drivers seat (remember we drive different vehicles to you, ours are a forward control mercedes van) I can see to the bumper of the van. I also would have noted any people around & made allowances accordingly.

No, I am not perfect, but to hide behind 'apparantly was no policy to do such a thing for that service' is a cop out. Do we only do things because there is a policy?

If there was no policy to say that if there is an explosion in the building, would everyone just sit there? Come on Ruff. They dont need a policy, they need a kick in the ass strong enough to send waves through all EMS & if they are the ones to be made an example of, then so be it. Make everyone across the US realise that we are here to help them, not hurt them. We do that in all of our actions. Especially in the most visible one of all, driving an ambulance.

[Richard B the EMT]

Train them to check better, but this COULD have been any of us.

So true. If nothing else, this incident is something to mention to others in all our respective agencies, as something to be attentive to, even if there is no official policy yet. Simple as telling 2 friends, who tell 2 friends, who tell 2 friends, etc. It's a first step, if nothing else.

[brentoli]

Firstly wherever possible we reverse in so we drive out. This is so there is an extra set of eyes on reversing. We also have reversing cameras in vehicles.

Just curious, does your second person get out and spot you while you are backing in?

[tniuqs]

This is a standard procedure in the oil patch industry so should it be different in any other industry ?

A past member of this website KodiacX is dead and a very close friend leaving a 5 year old and a 5 month old son without a father and by a very experienced EMS provider so lets not lets Mike Jolins death be anything but a reminder to us all.

RIP my friend.

Edited October 22, 2009 by tniuqs

[aussiephil]

Just curious, does your second person get out and spot you while you are backing in?

Yes, although the use of reversing cameras has negated this to a large extent.

[brentoli]

Yes, although the use of reversing cameras has negated this to a large extent.

Even the best back-up camera has blind spots. It can't see the child running rapidly from the side behind the ambulance.

[aussiephil]

Even the best back-up camera has blind spots. It can't see the child running rapidly from the side behind the ambulance.

Agreed, however when used in conjunction with the revesing sesors that actually go to the side of the car as well, they are very effective

[brentoli]

Agreed, however when used in conjunction with the revesing sesors that actually go to the side of the car as well, they are very effective

I agree they can be. No system is fool proof, and there are inherent risks in everything, thats why we have risk management, and not risk elimination. Sounds like your service does effective risk management. I think much discussion comes from the woman who said "OPEN THE DOORS AND GO" very poor thing to say, but it sure does sound good doesn't it? Makes life in the ambulance seem high adrenaline, high octane, high speed, just like a TV show. So both people get in the truck, hit the garage opener, look up the address in the map book, fiddle around for a little bit with the lights, your gloves, the radio. Then we take off. Sounds a little more realistic doesn't it? Maybe we should get out, raise the door, check the ramp for unconscious people, and then proceed. I am sure that is going to be the policy at this service from now on, but is it practical? How many times has anyone in this forum had an unconscious/incapacitated person laying in that 3 foot blind spot in front of your truck when you raised the ambulance bay door? How many people have moved a person out of harms way on foot while exiting the station, because it couldn't have been accomplished by a quick tap on the horn or siren? I am willing to say the numbers are statistically insignificant. There is no need to be calling for these peoples heads, from the information presented, I am sure there are a number of people here that would have the same incident occur to them.

I used to work for a major retail chain, we would get bi-weekly updates from corporate risk management. I will never forget the day we read a bulletin that came out about a new policy regarding electrical work... "Due to an accident at Store XXXX employees will NOT place any object, other than a two or three pronged male end connected to an UL certified electrical device, into an electrical outlet in any XX-XX company property."

[aussiephil]

I agree they can be. No system is fool proof, and there are inherent risks in everything, thats why we have risk management, and not risk elimination. Sounds like your service does effective risk management. I think much discussion comes from the woman who said "OPEN THE DOORS AND GO" very poor thing to say, but it sure does sound good doesn't it? Makes life in the ambulance seem high adrenaline, high octane, high speed, just like a TV show. So both people get in the truck, hit the garage opener, look up the address in the map book, fiddle around for a little bit with the lights, your gloves, the radio. Then we take off. Sounds a little more realistic doesn't it? Maybe we should get out, raise the door, check the ramp for unconscious people, and then proceed. I am sure that is going to be the policy at this service from now on, but is it practical? How many times has anyone in this forum had an unconscious/incapacitated person laying in that 3 foot blind spot in front of your truck when you raised the ambulance bay door? How many people have moved a person out of harms way on foot while exiting the station, because it couldn't have been accomplished by a quick tap on the horn or siren? I am willing to say the numbers are statistically insignificant. There is no need to be calling for these peoples heads, from the information presented, I am sure there are a number of people here that would have the same incident occur to them.

I used to work for a major retail chain, we would get bi-weekly updates from corporate risk management. I will never forget the day we read a bulletin that came out about a new policy regarding electrical work... "Due to an accident at Store XXXX employees will NOT place any object, other than a two or three pronged male end connected to an UL certified electrical device, into an electrical outlet in any XX-XX company property."

My concern here, & this is the 3rd time I have said it, is that if they are too excited to do anything other that jump in the car & go then how slap happy are they with their treatment, drug doses & thought processes.

We cannot teach common sense, it is inconceivable that you would write a SOP for the most stupid things, but we have to get to the lowest common denominator.

How many calls would it make a diffenence for a physical check to be made in the addition of say 20 seconds to the response? Yes in the case of an MI minutes mean muscle, but really, what difference will it make?

None.

They have shown they have a lack of understanding of reality & just wanna get out their & show off with their lights & sirens.That is what we do not need in EMS. Lets make the example of them & fire their asses.

[46Young]

My concern here, & this is the 3rd time I have said it, is that if they are too excited to do anything other that jump in the car & go then how slap happy are they with their treatment, drug doses & thought processes.

We cannot teach common sense, it is inconceivable that you would write a SOP for the most stupid things, but we have to get to the lowest common denominator.

How many calls would it make a diffenence for a physical check to be made in the addition of say 20 seconds to the response? Yes in the case of an MI minutes mean muscle, but really, what difference will it make?

None.

They have shown they have a lack of understanding of reality & just wanna get out their & show off with their lights & sirens.That is what we do not need in EMS. Lets make the example of them & fire their asses.

Fire asses, huh? Funny that you haven't said jack about the AMR crew that "didn't notice" that traffic had stopped in front of them, then turned into the oncoming lane, and then hit that guy's car, killing them. Running over the homeless man was negligent sure, but it wasn't intentional, in that they didn't see him and then purposefully run him over. The AMR crew failed to scan the road ahead of them, which suggests in strong likelihood that the driver was distracted, perhaps talking/texting on the phone, maybe eating or drinking, or playing with the radio. The driver killed that man. The driver was also criminally charged as well. I don't see you jumping all over THAT story, calling for their jobs, their heads, whatever. Give it up already you hypocrite.

http://www.emtcity.com/index.php/topic/16667-news-feed-man-dies-in-collision-with-florida-ambulance-jemscom/

I know you've seen this, as it's been on the main page when you've been online, don't feign ignorance by saying that you haven't seen this thread.