Should the H1N1 flu vaccine be mandatory for all health care workers?

[HERBIE1]

I look at that old sage advice in medicine- First, do no harm. In the case of these vaccinations(especially when made mandatory), I do not see that they can even come close to ensuring that. No, there are no guarantees in medicine, but if you already know there may be a significant risk- or at least the risk of being ineffective- then I am not on board with anything that mandates this treatment. Yes, we are in the health care, but we make sacrifices every day for what we do- risks of exposures, risks of injuries(from the job and from patients), lack of sleep, and even our mental and physical health.

Thus, I see no moral imperative that we need to also be guinea pigs for a vaccine that has NOT been fully vetted.

[Kiwiology]

Come vaccinate me all you want

Kiwi gets his 'No Country for Old Men' style silenced shotgun with pistol grip and puts on his Larry Flint style solider helemt...

[DwayneEMTP]

Actually, it's these kinds of statements that I find a little bit sad. Did anyone here enter the medical field without mandatory vaccinations? MMR, Hepatitis, perhaps Vericella?

When I went to Afghanistan, I can't even remember all of this things they poked holes in my for. Was this part of some giant government conspiracy? Of course not, it was an obligation I undertook so that I would be eligible for employment in my chosen field. And, it was a realistic, responsible action for my employer to take to attempt to avoid creating illness issues that were more easily, and much less expensively, avoided rather than corrected.

You chose a field that requires you to come into regular, intimate contact with people that are in a weakened physiological state. That sometimes requires you to take steps not required of the the postman, or the guy that mows your lawn.

Are your rights taken away should this become mandatory? Absolutely not. The guy mowing your lawn will be thrilled to hire you.

This is not the Nazis coming over the wall folks. If you want to discuss whether or not the vaccine is safe, that's awesome. Whether or not you are willing to stay employed in a field that demands such actions periodically, (as they will again in the future I'm sure) Outstanding. But I don't think anyone is truly served by the attitude that this is somehow akin to taking away America's guns or government initiated abortion.

If you think you should be free to expose yourself to the most likely people on the planet to be infected, and then casually go about your day infecting me, and those that I love, simply because you've chosen to join the Chicken Little fan club, well, I disagree.

I have no idea how effective this vaccine is, I've heard about 50% if vaccinated twice. I have no idea how dangerous. But to decide at this point, without reliable information, that you won't be vaccinated, simply to make a point? Well, that is in the very worst possible tradition of EMS.

If the data comes back saying that this vaccine appears safe? I'll be in line. Why? Because I'm a brainless follower and government pawn? Yeah, maybe, but more so because it's my obligation to protect my patients from all comers'. The police, docs or nurses I feel are out of line, and yeah, if I become the danger, even from me.

Just sayin'...

Dwayne

It's sad that we are even having this discussion...

We have a public health discussion and concern that what is in the public health concern should trump personal choice. That personal choice is sacred if you ask me. I can refuse every medical procedure that is offered me but if we make vaccination mandatory then we take that choice away....

I've seen posted here over and over about the reported side effects, and the fact that this vaccine is being pushed out to healthcare workers without being 'fully vetted.'

Could someone please post sources for these claims? They come from some of our more respected posters, so I'm in no way calling bullshit, I just haven't seen them and found that none came up easily during a Google search.

Thanks for your help.

Dwayne

Edit. That's weird, these were actually two separate posts that the program combined into one...anyone else have this happen? Other than making this note, nothing else was altered during the edit.

Edited October 3, 2009 by DwayneEMTP

[Just Plain Ruff]

Actually, it's these kinds of statements that I find a little bit sad. Did anyone here enter the medical field without mandatory vaccinations? MMR, Hepatitis, perhaps Vericella?

When I went to Afghanistan, I can't even remember all of this things they poked holes in my for. Was this part of some giant government conspiracy? Of course not, it was an obligation I undertook so that I would be eligible for employment in my chosen field. And, it was a realistic, responsible action for my employer to take to attempt to avoid creating illness issues that were more easily, and much less expensively, avoided rather than corrected.

You chose a field that requires you to come into regular, intimate contact with people that are in a weakened physiological state. That sometimes requires you to take steps not required of the the postman, or the guy that mows your lawn.

Are your rights taken away should this become mandatory? Absolutely not. The guy mowing your lawn will be thrilled to hire you.

This is not the Nazis coming over the wall folks. If you want to discuss whether or not the vaccine is safe, that's awesome. Whether or not you are willing to stay employed in a field that demands such actions periodically, (as they will again in the future I'm sure) Outstanding. But I don't think anyone is truly served by the attitude that this is somehow akin to taking away America's guns or government initiated abortion.

If you think you should be free to expose yourself to the most likely people on the planet to be infected, and then casually go about your day infecting me, and those that I love, simply because you've chosen to join the Chicken Little fan club, well, I disagree.

I have no idea how effective this vaccine is, I've heard about 50% if vaccinated twice. I have no idea how dangerous. But to decide at this point, without reliable information, that you won't be vaccinated, simply to make a point? Well, that is in the very worst possible tradition of EMS.

If the data comes back saying that this vaccine appears safe? I'll be in line. Why? Because I'm a brainless follower and government pawn? Yeah, maybe, but more so because it's my obligation to protect my patients from all comers'. The police, docs or nurses I feel are out of line, and yeah, if I become the danger, even from me.

Just sayin'...

Dwayne

I've seen posted here over and over about the reported side effects, and the fact that this vaccine is being pushed out to healthcare workers without being 'fully vetted.'

Could someone please post sources for these claims? They come from some of our more respected posters, so I'm in no way calling bullshit, I just haven't seen them and found that none came up easily during a Google search.

Thanks for your help.

Dwayne

Edit. That's weird, these were actually two separate posts that the program combined into one...anyone else have this happen? Other than making this note, nothing else was altered during the edit.

Dwayne, I agree with you to a point.

I am fully willing to get a shot when it's proven effective. But to get a shot that may only be 50% effective even after 2 shots has a lot more convincing me to do.

The flu shot has been around for years and even though it is effective for only about half the time, that time being when they guess the correct influenza strains I'm all in agreement to get. I have no problem getting either the flu shot or the pneumonia shot.

But I'm not convinced that the N1H1 shot is effective nor am I convinced of the shots safety since it has been rushed to market without the testing that the flu shot, the mmr shot and the hepatitis shot's have undergone.

Until that time that the n1h1 has been proven to be safe and I'll defer in taking this shot. Not sooner.

I have not completely refused to take the shot, but I have refused to take a shot that is still quote unquote "experimental".

if it is determined to be safe the hell yes I'm gonna get the shot but until the time that I'm convinced that it's safe then I'll hold off on the shot.

but your criticism of our attitudes is holier than thou. You have your opinions of vaccinations and I have mine. You cannot hold our opinions against us just as I will not hold your opinions against you.

on a happier note, how have you been and are you keeping safe? And one other thing ---- Have you seen my new daughter?

All right, I must have missed the Nazi reference and the abortion reference but hey whoever made those arguments doesnt' have the whole picture and to use those arguments to compare it to this discussion is ludicrous and absurd.

[HERBIE1]

For Dwayne and everyone else-

You asked about news on whether this vaccine has been fully vetted. I did a quick search and here is an article from the NIH. Note this paragraph from the article:

The ongoing NIAID-sponsored trial began in mid-August at five sites nationwide. The trial is assessing the safety and immune responses to one and two doses of either 15 micrograms or 30 micrograms of vaccine. Data from the trial is being compared for three age groups: children 6 months to 35 months old; 3 to 9 years old; and 10 to 17 years old.

OK, I'm no expert, but this study began approximately 1 and a half months ago, and they already want to push the release date up from November to October. Is this an adequate amount of time to sort out all the potential problems with the vaccine?

This is the link to the article:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/sep2009/niaid-21.htm

This vaccine may be the best thing since sliced bread, but I simply feel that rushing it's release AND making it mandatory is a slippery slope, and a potentially dangerous idea.

[JTpaintball70]

Makes me glad I work in the hospital I do. They are giving us the option of whether we want it or not. I am declining both flu shots, as the two times I've gotten one I was sicker than I ever was during flu season without it.

[ERDoc]

Several people keep bringing up the fact that the H1N1 vaccine has not been fully studied. With any medication, the final phase of the study is on a large human population. There is no way to really study a medicine until it is released on the population. This is why things like the cardiovacular effects of the COX-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, etc) were not know until after they were released. In phase 3 of the studies you are only testing the drug on several hundred to several thousand people. Sometimes, because your sample size is limited, problems such as the cardiovascular effects cannot be seen. Also keep in mind that everything we do in medicine carries some risk, giving aspirin and tylenol, intubation and even recieving your regular vaccines (Guillane-Barre anyone?).

[Just Plain Ruff]

Several people keep bringing up the fact that the H1N1 vaccine has not been fully studied. With any medication, the final phase of the study is on a large human population. There is no way to really study a medicine until it is released on the population. This is why things like the cardiovacular effects of the COX-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, etc) were not know until after they were released. In phase 3 of the studies you are only testing the drug on several hundred to several thousand people. Sometimes, because your sample size is limited, problems such as the cardiovascular effects cannot be seen. Also keep in mind that everything we do in medicine carries some risk, giving aspirin and tylenol, intubation and even recieving your regular vaccines (Guillane-Barre anyone?).

Point taken doc, point taken

I still will wait till a larger group of people are vaccinated.

do I run the risk of getting the swine flu? Yes indeedee

My nephew has it right now. He only has the cough and fever and vomiting. Minor stuff if you ask me. Of course he's not immunocompromised though normally.

If I get a feeling the vaccination is causing majore problems to people out there then I'm not going to get it. But if it appears that hundreds of thousands are getting the vaccine and no adverse effects on these people or a minimum of adverse effects then I'll take the shot.

and yes personal choice and personal decisions are sacred. There is no other vaccine out there (correct me if I'm wrong) that is mandatory to get. So why make the N1H1 vaccine mandatory????

[ERDoc]

You are correct Ruff, there is no other mandatory vaccine (in theory). Personally, I hope all goes well with the H1N1 vaccine. If the anti-vaccine people (ie Jenny Mcarthy) even get the slightest scent of blood they will monopolize on it to further their misguided cause.

[scubanurse]

So I was looking up the symptoms of the H1N1 and I'm confused. It seems there are such a varying range of symptoms that it would be hard to truly pinpoint. I read somewhere that cough, sore throat, fever were symptoms but to me that sounds more like an upper respiratory/strep throat than flu? Can anyone clear up what the actual symptoms are? Does a fever have to be present for it to be H1N1?

Thanks!