Your typical Lifeline call

[Medic One]

Most of ours are accidental activations and no residence in the home after PD and/or fire forced entry.

[HERBIE1]

Clearly I have dared to step on a senior poster's toes here.

As with most forums, this one has a hierarchy, and most folks seem to defer to this person's expertise on every subject. I violated that protocol.

As was noted, too many threads have dissolved into personal attacks and I sincerely apologize for my part in them, but when someone makes implications or inferences about my character or professionalism, I will not ignore them.

This is a good place to learn and exchange ideas, but the drama and BS isn't worth it.

[DwayneEMTP]

Herbie, though I like many, many of your posts, I going to ask that you step back for a few days and assume that you're just not getting VentMedic. Of course, hopefully it goes without saying that perhaps you understand her perfectly and I'm the one that's confused, I'm just asking that you look at her posts through new eyes and see if maybe you've gone off in the ditch.

One of the greatest gifts to me as a provider is to get to have conversations with 'realists', something that is too often a rarity in EMS. Vent, Dust, ak, Eydawn (though she's still just a kitten)..hell, a bunch of others, fit this profile for me. Many of my most closely held attitudes and opinions began with their council until I had the experience to verify their 'rightness' on my own.

If you think Vent's opinions are harsh and aggressive, you would have really hated the 'old' Dustdevil. He's in a different place in his life now, but a few years back his opinions made vent's seem like a she's 'kind of on the fence..'

As to the original topic, I think that perhaps (I haven't tracked it) half of my Medic Alert calls are accidents, maybe 25% "I just needed help with (my oxygen, getting back into bed, finding my medicines) and the last 25% people that are seriously acute and in trouble.

I truly love to run calls. I don't care if the call is an emergency or not, I friggin hate sitting around quarters listening to the TV spew idiotic crap into my already questionable brain and take any excuse to get outside.

One thing I've found inspiring is that one of the lady medics I respect a lot where I work started documenting the "I need help" Medic alert calls and dispersing that info to the other crews. I've started to follow suit. One that I got from her the other day went something like, "Martha, 86 y/o female on home O2 is having trouble changing her tanks or identifying when they are low or empty. Her health is beginning to fail so I believe that we'll see her much more often in the coming months. She lives at "xxxx", the best entry point is, "zzzz" her O2 is in the hall closet and her spare tanks are in the garage. Her normal delivery rate is X via NC secondary to COPD. No other significant pathologies. She's nearly deaf in her right ear and it takes her a while to get to the door. Mention her couch cover (a present from her grandson in Iraq) for cookies and stories!"

I love the way she turned a common complaint into something healthy. We all look much more forward to running this call now, which we do once every week or two, as these details have made her 'real' to us, not simply another mistakenly pushed button. We're a low volume, rural service, (2-6 calls/day with a high percentage of significant acuity) so I'm not pretending that this would be so easy in many of your systems, but just suggesting that as this worked to brighten our days, there are likely ways to do so at your services as well.

Anyway, just some thoughts after a pretty long week...

Have a great day all...

Dwayne

[HERBIE1]

Herbie, though I like many, many of your posts, I going to ask that you step back for a few days and assume that you're just not getting VentMedic. Of course, hopefully it goes without saying that perhaps you understand her perfectly and I'm the one that's confused, I'm just asking that you look at her posts through new eyes and see if maybe you've gone off in the ditch.

One of the greatest gifts to me as a provider is to get to have conversations with 'realists', something that is too often a rarity in EMS. Vent, Dust, ak, Eydawn (though she's still just a kitten)..hell, a bunch of others, fit this profile for me. Many of my most closely held attitudes and opinions began with their council until I had the experience to verify their 'rightness' on my own.

If you think Vent's opinions are harsh and aggressive, you would have really hated the 'old' Dustdevil. He's in a different place in his life now, but a few years back his opinions made vent's seem like a she's 'kind of on the fence..'

As to the original topic, I think that perhaps (I haven't tracked it) half of my Medic alert calls are accidents, maybe 25% "I just needed help with (my oxygen, getting back into bed, finding my medicines) and the last 25% people that are seriously acute and in trouble.

I truly love to run calls. I don't care if the call is an emergency or not, I friggin hate sitting around quarters listening to the TV spew idiotic crap into my already questionable brain and take any excuse to get outside.

One thing I've found inspiring is that one of the lady medics I respect a lot where I work started documenting the "I need help" Medic alert calls and dispersing that info to the other crews. I've started to follow suit. One that I got from her the other day went something like, "Martha, 86 y/o female on home O2 is having trouble changing her tanks or identifying when they are low or empty. Her health is beginning to fail so I believe that we'll see her much more often in the coming months. She lives at "xxxx", the best entry point is, "zzzz" her O2 is in the hall closet and her spare tanks are in the garage. Her normal delivery rate is X via NC secondary to COPD. No other significant pathologies. She's nearly deaf in her right ear and it takes her a while to get to the door. Mention her couch cover (a present from her grandson in Iraq) for cookies and stories!"

I love the way she turned a common complaint into something healthy. We all look much more forward to running this call now, which we do once every week or two, as these details have made her 'real' to us, not simply another mistakenly pushed button. We're a low volume, rural service, (2-6 calls/day with a high percentage of significant acuity) so I'm not pretending that this would be so easy in many of your systems, but just suggesting that as this worked to brighten our days, there are likely ways to do so at your services as well.

Anyway, just some thoughts after a pretty long week...

Have a great day all...

Dwayne

I appreciate the reasoned response, Dwayne. My problem is- and it's nothing new- I too am a realist as well as being pragmatic, which means I do my job, follow the rules, but also understand how the process really works. When I hear an idea, program, or initiative that sounds too good to be true, I know that it usually is.

My political views reflect a similar sensibility. In many ways, I am jealous of idealistic people- of how they can remain true to their views, despite a mountain of evidence that may contradict the wisdom of such a stance. The frustration would drive me insane.

We need both types of people in the world, but I think for many in this business, idealistic is a tough route to take.

I do my job, I've been doing it well for 30 years, and I still do whatever I can, within reason, to help people- patients and family members alike. When accused of being burnt out, apathetic, or somehow falling short of some utopian ideal, I will fight back.

[Kaisu]

You know Herbie, I appreciate the remarks in your last post. Speaking personally, when someone offends or enrages me, its almost inevitably because I have a secret fear that what they say is true. It is truly frustrating to be an idealist in this field. I've only been running for 13 months, (although I have over 1200 calls) and I am still idealistic. I can only imagine what all the years of experience and all the BS has done to you.

Not withstanding, I do what I can, and what we can do is dictated by the volume and type of calls we run. I think the important thing is the mindset. Someone who is posted for 12 hours in a car running 1 call per hour is going to be intolerant of what they consider BS calls. The problem is that the issue is displaced onto the patient as opposed to a system that thinks 12 calls/12 hours is acceptable delivery of health care. I personally work 48 hour shifts, and standup 48s (where we never get to bed) are not uncommon. I spend the first day of my 4 day beached on a couch recovering.

I think what enrages Vent is the simple minded idiots who think that the system is fine if only those BS patients would go away. You are obviously not one of them, but lets face it, your responses to her were pretty obnoxious. I understand that you were defensive. I suggest you ask yourself why.

Respectfully

Kaisu

Edited November 7, 2009 by Kaisu

[HERBIE1]

You know Herbie, I appreciate the remarks in your last post. Speaking personally, when someone offends or enrages me, its almost inevitably because I have a secret fear that what they say is true. It is truly frustrating to be an idealist in this field. I've only been running for 13 months, (although I have over 1200 calls) and I am still idealistic. I can only imagine what all the years of experience and all the BS has done to you.

Not withstanding, I do what I can, and what we can do is dictated by the volume and type of calls we run. I think the important thing is the mindset. Someone who is posted for 12 hours in a car running 1 call per hour is going to be intolerant of what they consider BS calls. The problem is that the issue is displaced onto the patient as opposed to a system that thinks 12 calls/12 hours is acceptable delivery of health care. I personally work 48 hour shifts, and standup 48s (where we never get to bed) are not uncommon. I spend the first day of my 4 day beached on a couch recovering.

I think what enrages Vent is the simple minded idiots who think that the system is fine if only those BS patients would go away. You are obviously not one of them, but lets face it, your responses to her were pretty obnoxious. I understand that you were defensive. I suggest you ask yourself why.

Respectfully

Kaisu

I will put up with a certain amount of BS. When I reach my limit, I respond in the same manner I am addressed.

As for obnoxious- "you ain't seen nothin yet". Believe it or not, I am being restrained. Not worth getting worked up about this.

Childish? Maybe, but I never claimed to have the patience of Jobe.

The system is NOT fine, but BS patients are not the problem- the system is. The only way someone can take advantage of a situation is if they are allowed to do it. The rules are made to protect a patient, but in doing so, loopholes remain, and are exploited by some. That's life, but I won't pretend to like it, nor will I idly take abuse when I comment on it.

I've been in this business for a long time- in multiple capacities- management, supervisory, and street work. I teach, I attend classes for personal enrichment as well as improving my knowledge and skills. You need to find your niche and exert your time, energy, and skills in a way most appropriate for you and your circumstances, which may be quite different than mine, or someone else's. "Right" can also be a very subjective thing.

Keep the idealism as long as you can, Kaisu. I hope your situation- call volume, work environment, personal and professional life, and mother nature allow you to remain that way.

It's not easy to do.

[Mateo_1387]

yea I can see how you didn't interpret her intent.

#$%&. Oops. My mistake. I honestly thought you were referring to the part about the impression, and I did not reread the part about the intent.

However, measuring someone's intent can be subject to an individual's viewpoint, but, it seems obvious to most people that the intent is to promote a high standard. That being said, your sure got me on that one point, now how about the rest of my points and posts?

I'm sure she knows more about respiratory pathology then I do ... Why is that relevant to this thread?

If she lost the tone, I think more would be willing to accept what she says, and have an opportunity to learn from them, as a rule I usually skip over her posts because I don't like the tone.

She may very well have spent a lot of time trying to improve her system she is involved in ... No one is taking that from her, I hope she continues helping her system.

I still do not, and can not agree there is justification for life line any other system similar to life line, or even the geriatric community calling 9-1-1 because their milk is sour, can't find their glasses, etc...

Bold point # 1 Do you feel the same way about the tone of Dustdevil's (the old Dust, that is) posts? How about AK's? Ridryder's? From what I know of the first two and remember from the third, they were all honestly and blunt in what they say, many times echoing what each other posts, including Vent's.

Bold point # 2 I agree that these probably should not be EMS calls. The fact is that we do respond to those calls and when doing such, we should provide a basic service of trying to provide the patients with resources to rectifying their situation. If someone is calling because they cannot care for themselves, we should be alerted that this small issue may be part of a bigger issue that needs addressed. If I receive a call through lifeline for sour milk, can't find their glasses, or the like, one of the first things going through my head is 'will this person be able to care from themselves if the situation is worse?' In essence, we are again a part of a link/chain/continuum of health care that is going to initially have to investigate the situation and direct the issues to the professionals who need to handle the situation.

Clearly I have dared to step on a senior poster's toes here.

As with most forums, this one has a hierarchy, and most folks seem to defer to this person's expertise on every subject. I violated that protocol.

As was noted, too many threads have dissolved into personal attacks and I sincerely apologize for my part in them, but when someone makes implications or inferences about my character or professionalism, I will not ignore them.

This is a good place to learn and exchange ideas, but the drama and BS isn't worth it.

Herbie, disagreeing with somebody and directing personal attacks at them are different things. I honestly would not take someone's comments so personally. This, for the most part, is an anonymous forum, and as such I do not have anything to honestly prove to anyone, except that I can participate and grow with the rest of the posters. Ventmedic would not know me if I walked up to her on the street and slapped her. I do not expect her to know me any better on this website. There are a few folks I have met from this site, whom I would feel insulted if they attacked me as a person having known me, but that only includes a select few. But the people I have met have questioned my assumptions and helped me with many issues, but have been kind enough to leave out the personal attacks on character.

One of the greatest things about this site is the feedback one can get on any slew of subjects. The feedback can be invaluable to help oneself question their practices and thoughts on matters. We get better together when we engage in beneficial argument that questions our ideas, assumptions, and presents facts. When Ventmedic says something along the line of 'The Paramedic does not have the education to....', it is not arrogance speaking, it is not a personal attack, but rather in a general sense, the truth. As others have said before, EMTCity has become relaxed in the past years to the point where all kinds of garbage passes by on the board, without being questioned. Many remember the olden days and wish to see it again, so expect for your posts to be scrutinized.

Herbie, we will not be any better as a group if persons such as your self do not actively question the assumptions of others. As I said before, when someone does not post something you care for, bring it to their attention in a logical format and make them rethink their position so they can reply to you and make you rethink your position.

I hope you stick with us, we can always benefit from various viewpoints. We can leave the drama for the chat room.

[SA_Medic]

OMG! I generally defer from reading topics that do not appeal to me when it gets to the topic itself. In this case, "Lifeline" is something that has no meaning to me since we do not have anything similar to it where I am from. Then I started "hearing" the chatter about this topic in the chat rooms and decided to read it. In my honest opinion it was a complete waste of time.

The first few posts actually had something to do with the original posting then it just turned into the usual "I am this" and "You are that" posting. It always seems to be the same people that hi jack threads and turn into their own little personal kingdom and domain. Why is it so hard to stick to the original posting? Why does someone always have to start questioning the others methods, professionalism, ethics, training or ideas on this job? When will you people actually start realising that we are in the same business, however we do not work according to the same protocols nor do we work according to the same set of rules.

Freaking hell, this is supposed to be a site for adults and professionals to discuss issues relevant to the job.

[tskstorm]

#$%&. Oops. My mistake. I honestly thought you were referring to the part about the impression, and I did not reread the part about the intent.

However, measuring someone's intent can be subject to an individual's viewpoint, but, it seems obvious to most people that the intent is to promote a high standard. That being said, your sure got me on that one point, now how about the rest of my points and posts?

Bold point # 1 Do you feel the same way about the tone of Dustdevil's (the old Dust, that is) posts? How about AK's? Ridryder's? From what I know of the first two and remember from the third, they were all honestly and blunt in what they say, many times echoing what each other posts, including Vent's.

Bold point # 2 I agree that these probably should not be EMS calls. The fact is that we do respond to those calls and when doing such, we should provide a basic service of trying to provide the patients with resources to rectifying their situation. If someone is calling because they cannot care for themselves, we should be alerted that this small issue may be part of a bigger issue that needs addressed. If I receive a call through lifeline for sour milk, can't find their glasses, or the like, one of the first things going through my head is 'will this person be able to care from themselves if the situation is worse?' In essence, we are again a part of a link/chain/continuum of health care that is going to initially have to investigate the situation and direct the issues to the professionals who need to handle the situation.

1. Yes I always disliked their tones. However their tone's and Vent's doesn't seem to be the same to me.

2. Here's the ultimate problem, these persons who use 9-1-1 for this nonsense fall into a category called "social removal" They need a social workers help, I can not leave them home, I must transport them to the hospital against their will. If they are not safe, and can not take care of themselves they must have a medical evaluation and social work 'stuff' done.

NO one here wants these patients forced against there wills, however if you can not get your own milk and fill your own refrigerator without calling 9-1-1 how can I expect them to cook for themselves and clean after themselves, and in general take care of themselves. These people do get help, and they do need help, they should not need to call 9-1-1, for these basic services. We should not be picking up societies/social workers slack. Who picks up our slack ?

[Mateo_1387]

1. Yes I always disliked their tones. However their tone's and Vent's doesn't seem to be the same to me.

2. Here's the ultimate problem, these persons who use 9-1-1 for this nonsense fall into a category called "social removal" They need a social workers help, I can not leave them home, I must transport them to the hospital against their will. If they are not safe, and can not take care of themselves they must have a medical evaluation and social work 'stuff' done.

NO one here wants these patients forced against there wills, however if you can not get your own milk and fill your own refrigerator without calling 9-1-1 how can I expect them to cook for themselves and clean after themselves, and in general take care of themselves. These people do get help, and they do need help, they should not need to call 9-1-1, for these basic services. We should not be picking up societies/social workers slack. Who picks up our slack ?

The Fire Department

I agree with you storm. Question is, what are we going to do to fix it?