paramedic school

[VentMedic]

We get out of state applicants all the time and I wonder why that is?, maybe cause we are doing it right strength in numbers and until that changes ems is just that ems as fast past license and nothing more, if you don't like it get out and do something else and thats what people do the get in and get out.

It would be pointless to argue anything medical with you since you seem to have missed the 80% EMS calls in your own post. Since I have spent 30 years in EMS, your comments really don't scare me "out of EMS". You scare me for knowing you and others like you are allowed to do come near patients.

As for the out of state applications, you are in California. We get the out of state applications also but very much like California, once an applicant realizes why our wages are higher and that their chances of raising a family complete with a house and car are slim to none, few stick around. It truly has nothing to do with your FD especially for those who are serious about being a good Paramedic. Those out of state applicants have probably blanketed the state with their applications to every FD. Seattle is more highly sort after since it is a challenge to get a job that requires dedication, ambition, intelligence as well as the physical fitness of a FF. There are also many other outstanding FDs that take EMS seriously. However, in Southern CA that in not the case and usually the studies done in your area are to show your Paramedics can not perform some of the basic skills in EMS such as intubation or 12-lead ECGs which are then used to reflect negatively on EMS. Other FDs and EMS agencies such as Seattle and Wake County have shown quite the opposite.

I am sure there are a few really good Paramedics in your FD but as you said "strength in numbers". Thus, for those for good Paramedics, it would be difficult to soar like an eagle when you are working with a flock of turkeys.

Edited November 18, 2009 by VentMedic

[JakeEMTP]

Yeah yeah, patient care is involved to an extent, but you have to remember only 80 percent of fire calls are EMS related. We do more than EMS. Again, most of the time we stablize and transport to the ED for definitive care, no rocket science to this. It's great that everyone wants to make EMS a profession, but the reality is that it is a stepping stone job that in my opinion is not going to change as long as people give the service away for free and employer's opt for the cheapest labor. We get out of state applicants all of the time and I wonder why that is? Maybe because we are doing it right. Strength in numbers and until that changes EMS is just that, EMS is a fast past license and nothing more. If you don't like it get out and do something else and thats what people do, they get in and get out.

So, according to your numbers, FD's only respond to 20% fire calls. Just because CA just stabilizes and transports does not mean the rest of the Country does EMS this way. We have tried, to obviously no avail, to explain to you that CA does EMS poorly. Do not judge my chosen profession by the way CA does it.

I have never had any desire to be a fireman and still don't. I don't care if thousands of out of State applicants apply to your dept. The issue is and always will be EMS is a way for more knuckle draggers to get on to a FD. EMS should be seperate from the FD. Since you say 80% of your FD calls are EMS related, shouldn't EMS be making your 150,000 per annum and the FD considerably less?

The first line in your comment would be comical if it wasn't so very disturbing at the same time. You just don't get it. It is ALL about patient care! Not just to some extent!

Oh, and I fixed your quote. See if you can spot the changes.

[Diazepam618]

So, according to your numbers, FD's only respond to 20% fire calls. Just because CA just stabilizes and transports does not mean the rest of the Country does EMS this way. We have tried, to obviously no avail, to explain to you that CA does EMS poorly. Do not judge my chosen profession by the way CA does it.

I have never had any desire to be a fireman and still don't. I don't care if thousands of out of State applicants apply to your dept. The issue is and always will be EMS is a way for more knuckle draggers to get on to a FD. EMS should be seperate from the FD. Since you say 80% of your FD calls are EMS related, shouldn't EMS be making your 150,000 per annum and the FD considerably less?

The first line in your comment would be comical if it wasn't so very disturbing at the same time. You just don't get it. It is ALL about patient care! Not just to some extent!

Oh, and I fixed your quote. See if you can spot the changes.

I don't get it what is the rest of the country doing that is so amazing are they eliminating medical directors and making up their own protocols?, are they taking x-rays in the field, are they drawing labs and have the values ready when they hit the er door? are they casting broken limbs with in the field or perscribing meds?, what is it that is so better? Yeah come on patient care is noble and all, but people really do this for the money, you got to pay bills thats all Iam saying, but the other thing that gets me is when all this change is going to come about, I just don't see it happing like a two year degree min. for $12.00 an hour who is going to do that when you can get an RN two year degree and make so much more. and why should we in fire base ems not make the money we do?m we do two jobs, cheaper for the city thats why we wliminated single role paramedics, that model works where I live, maybe not in other places.

[RavEMTGun]

I don't get it what is the rest of the country doing that is so amazing. Yeah come on patient care is noble and all, but people really do this for the money

You have no soul and no professionalism. You don't care about medicine. Why are you here?

Edited November 18, 2009 by RavEMTGun

[VentMedic]

You have no soul and no professionalism. You don't care about medicine. Why are you here?

Diazepam618 (or whatever name he happens to use on the other forums) is probably just trolling to get responses since he has had difficulty in keeping his statements consistent.

I also have not seen him spouting such stuff on a FF forum. I seriously doubt if his FF buddies would be as receptive of him for presenting them as a bunch of uncaring, unprofessional EMS providers or FireFighters who care very little for the public they serve. There is also a good chance he is not with a FD or he would already know this.

[Diazepam618]

You have no soul and no professionalism. You don't care about medicine. Why are you here?

What you don't have any bills, or do you still live at home with mom and dad, look buddy I have a car payment , wife/kid and girlfriend on the side and guess what it all cost money.

[46Young]

I am only talking about the medical professions. However, I think you may find Accountants and quite a few other professions on the same page.

Name one licensed health care profession that relies on a tech school cert.

About the only one I know of is the LVN which is no longer utilized is some states. I haven't seen an LVN in the area hospital systems in over 20 years. The few that are still there are working as PCTs which are CNAs with a few more skills and a little more education. The title of LVN is no longer recognized or placed on any name badge.

Upgrade piece mill? RT and RN did not put in a few extra piece mill patches between diploma and degree. They announced the degree would be the minimum and gave about a 5 year notice. LVN and CRTTs were put on notice that they get their advanced credentials or they would no longer find themselves working in their same job areas. A few RTs were grand fathered but the hospitals embraced the educational requirements but then, the hospitals actually started rerquiring a degree for employment long before it became official. Thus, there were not many nondegreed RTs still hanging around when the change occured. If you do a little researching you will find this is true for the other allied health professions and the coming NP education requirements.

Why is it that every other health care profession has a degree? Many go into it for a career. If another professional wants to change careers they probably already expect some work to do so. An Accountant or Engineer would understand the importance of education. Have you ever heard of a 6 month bookkeeper tell a Graduate school Accountant that their college education is useless? Would I want a 6 month tech school bookkeeper representing me with the IRS?

Should this be good enough for patients? Is patient care all about your leisure?

Why waste time at an expensive tech school earning credits that transfer nowhere? Why would anyone then start over if when the college tells them they are not giving credits for half-arses A&P classes?

You say you are not anti education but then are you anti Paramedic? Do you believe the Paramedic should not join the ranks of the other medical professionals for legislative recognition?

Do you believe the Paramedic is nothing more than a first aider with a feel extra advanced skills and thus a tech school training will suffice?

I know you have read my posts about how and why other professions have advanced their education and I am really puzzled that you claim to be pro EMS as a FF but can not seem to see them as medical professionals. If you do not want to advance with EMS then you really should consider if you only got the Paramedic patch for a few extra dollars from the FD for your pension and not for the patient care aspect of the job. Your posts lately have only been about what the job can do for your bank account and not what you can do for the patient. Even when you were talking about getting a degree as an RN or RRT in other threads, you mentioned very little about the job or the patient care aspect. Neither you or Diazepam618 are a credit to Fire Based EMS when you fail to realize there is a patient involved.

Most of work for a paycheck. I've shown that it is possible to circumvent the degree process if your only aspiration is field EMS. Many don't have the time to pursue a degree due to personal issues. Not going the degree route doesn't necessarily make for an inferior medic, especially with time in service. Most providers in NYC are tech grads. I've done some traveling, and I've seen some damn fine medics in action back home. Is a degree desireable? Sure. Should it be the standard? Sure. Is it necessary at the moment? No. Other professions have raised the educational bar prior to increasing compensation. These professionals had already decided on their chosen profession, and were there to stay. EMS, on the other hand, attract individuals that seek a quick income stream, and the profession is laden with transient individuals. It is what it is.

When I was referring to piecemeal, I was pointing to the fact that incumbents have 5 years to get two years of ed, while newcomers must do it FT, nothing less.

You're right about me, the almighty dollar is the prime motivator for me. I didn't originally intend to go fire, but rather go for RN/RT and do EMS on the side. But then I learned of the lucrative career/retirement of firemedics, and it was an easy choice. This career allows me to achieve my financial goals. Everything else, including increased ed/scope of EMS is nice to have, (I'm going to pursue EMS admin) and I'll help within the dept to that end, but it's secondary to my bottom line. If they'll send me back to school for a degree upgrade, I'll go for it. Otherwise, my energy is better spent elsewhere regarding career development. RT or RN will have to wait until later as these programs don't allow part time participation, only FT devotion. It's difficult to clear that amount of time at this present juncture.

[VentMedic]

I've seen some damn fine medics in action back home. Is a degree desireable?

Who are you comparing them to? If you have only a basic Paramedic cert and do not know what the benefits of an education will do, how can you make that comparison? Imagine how impressive they could be if they actually had some education to back up their "street smarts" and field skills.

I think you are seriously missing the bigger picture of why EMS will have to eventually evolve as a profession. Even the FDs will have to justify that they are providing more than just a taxi ride to the hospital.

RT or RN will have to wait until later as these programs don't allow part time participation, only FT devotion.

That is because they are considered careers and not just jobs. If you only want to find extra income, there are plenty of other "trades" you can pick up in a short time and even on a part time bases at a tech school. Don't go into nursing or RT just for the money. Both professions involve alot of patient care.

[RavEMTGun]

History has shown that the vast majority of individuals have a poor financial eduaction, as evidenced by overextended credit, real estate speculation, underfunding 401k's etc. etc. Our example shows how one of a lesser salary can come out ahead of one that is more gainfully employed.

...

Most college students don't work FT. I have never met any that contribute to an IRA while completing a degree.

If you want to give the best case tech school scenario, then let me give the best case AAS scenario which is WAY BETTER:

Working AAS Paramedic Plan! It is easy to do!

1. Get EMT-B (possibly take Bio I at the same time)

2. Get full time EMT job and work it for 1 year to get the required 1 year experience to go to P school. While working full time, go to school part time taking Bio I, A&P I, A&P II, IV, and EKG (that's 17 credits total over 3 semesters, not hard!) all while receiving financial assistance. If you are motivated, you could do all your general ed requirements too, eliminating step 4.

3. Enroll in one of several AAS EMT-P programs that are scheduled to work around your full time modified kelly shift! You work full time EMT-B while earning EMT-P and putting money into retirement if your job allows and you know what to do.

4. Work full time as an EMT-P while over the next 1-2 semesters, you take the remaining 9-15 credits required for the AAS degree.

Several of my friends have gone this route. It is entirely doable.

Your whole argument is couched on the idea that the tech school guy is going to have your university account dropout level of finance knowledge to put him ahead of the degreed medic who doesn't know the finance tricks. This is a strawman's argument. Maybe our AAS paramedic will take finance classes as electives. I know the tech school dude won't take any electives. There are none.

The Working-AAS option is way cheaper than your tech school option, allows fulltime employment the entire time, and is just as fast except that you probably made more money and now you have a better education and an AAS to advance in the future! The tech school guy will not have the future option to quickly get an associates degree. His tech school credits won't count. He'll need 2 years of school.

That pretty much ends your argument for tech school being the most lucrative option. It might be the easy route, or the only route for those who cannot cut the higher standard, but it is NOT the most lucrative route out there.

Should this be good enough for patients? Is patient care all about your leisure?

He's being "pragmatic" by which I mean "selfish." It is NOT "enlightened self interest," just self interest. You could call it unprofessional...

Your posts lately have only been about what the job can do for your bank account and not what you can do for the patient. Even when you were talking about getting a degree as an RN or RRT in other threads, you mentioned very little about the job or the patient care aspect. Neither you or Diazepam618 are a credit to Fire Based EMS when you fail to realize there is a patient involved.

Young, she kinda nailed you down there. That is exactly what your posts have read like.

Edited November 18, 2009 by RavEMTGun

[46Young]

I've said before that I enjoy pt care. RN or RT are two fields that interest me. I'm already making great money, so the significant time investment that I would have to make to earn a degree had better be worth it financially. That's why I' m fixated on opportunity cost. I have a wife and a chld (soon to be two). If I'm going to spend countless hours away from home, there needs to be a significant financial incentive to do so. I could just bang out a BS fire science degree and earn the extra points for promotional purposes. I thought that it would be of much greater benefit to both myself and my pts if I went for RN or RT. They would both be good fields to work for in retirement if I want something to do. The required FT commitment isn't compatible with my current situation. I'll defer that for 5 years or so when I'll have more leave saved, along with paybacke to call in for exchange of shifts.

You're right that I do this for the money first. That's what a job is. It provides an income stream. Some are lucky to do what they enjoy, some are miserable in their chosen field. Think about it. I dropped out of college, went to a medic tech school, and I'm now making 69k base with plenty of available scheduled OT, promotions are done off of a competitive, unbiased list, many career advancement opportunities, pension of 72% at 25 years or 55 years of age plus a three year DROP. Starting RN's here make around 50-55k, RRT's around 60k or so. I've already got 60k+ in deferred comp, and more than enough to buy a decently sized SFH in a good school district. The pension alone will be between 150k and 200k, depending on promotions 25 years or so from now. Multiply that annual benefit times three for the DROP monies, add my deferred comp, and to equal my annual benefit one would need 3-4 million in a bond fund paying 5% interest to match. Not bad for a college dropout. So yes, I used my medic cert to land this job. It wasn't my original intention when completing the medic program, it just worked out that way. It was either all this, or go back to school. Doing what's best for my family is what led me to this decision. Simple as that. I've always had a desire to do fire, so it worked out well. As such, I can further my education at my leisure, not FT while also working FT because I'm behind the 8 ball.

If I can gain influence within the dept, I do intend to push for medics having a degree as a condition of hire. They're already sending incumbents for their Assosciates currently.