paramedic school

[vs-eh?]

Ahem...

Canada...

That is all...

It still amazes me the discussions that persist on the need of EMS education in the USA. These discussions don't happen in Ontario (and I would imagine the rest of Canada). You don't hear people trying to rationalize away the need for a 2 year college diploma to be BLS in Ontario. The need for a further 1-2 years to be ALS or critical care. You don't want to do the education? You aren't in EMS, period. There is NO ONE educated in Ontario in paramedicine in the last 10 years (well, there are a very small minority with less but anyway) that DOES NOT have a 2 year college degree MINIMUM to work BLS in the province.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people that post on this forum would never be able to work in Ontario, or a large portion of Canada without totally restarting the educational process.

Oh, and save the "arrogant Canadian" post that I'm sure will come up.

[46Young]

Don't get me wrong, EMS should be a degreed profession, but it isn't at the moment. I've been focusing on the financial angle as compensation is a major component when considering a career path. All I'm saying is that one needs to consider all factors when planning a career path, to truly make a fully informed decision. Opportunity cost is rarely discussed.

When my daughter was born, I had to consider the opportuity cost of going to (a tech) medic school vs enrolling in an ASN program at a local CC. Almost every single medic I knew were tech grads. the general outlook in the area is that of "Why spend 2 years + in college when you can do it in half the time, and be working that much sooner?" These were my peers, who naturally influenced my attitude regarding education at the time. Most intended to be career medics, or get degrees in other fields at some point. This decision to enroll in medic school was made in 9/04. I could go to medic school and be working ALS by 10/05, or I could begin the RN program in 8/05, finishing in 5/07. Medic school cost 6k, the RN program would have been around 15k or so if I remember correctly.

I was earning 20.22/hr with 10% night diff as an EMT, working all nights. Upon graduation, I was upgraded to medic for 22.02/hr for 6 months (40 hour workweek in NYC), then 26.72/yr for 6 more months, then 30.31/hr by 10/06. I was still working nights, making 10% on top of that. OT and per diem work was widely available. I made 80k the first year, 85k the second. RN's were starting at around 70k/yr at the time.

My next step was to get into a position that earns a pension. I briefly considered FDNY EMS, and then dismissed that idea. I reconsidered getting my RN, either by going to a CC or through Excelsior, like many of my co-workers. This program was still regarded well, and this was NY, where the program originates. I would then work for Stonybrook hospital, earning 65k/yr with a pension.

It was at this time that two individuals from my job visited back up from Fairfax, and told me about the firemedic career path. I again considered the opportunity cost of staying in NY, not putting in time towards a pension vs getting on at Fairfax, which is far more lucrative than any other available options at that present time. I was also 30 y/o at the time. I was behind the 8-ball regarding retirement.

Education is highly desireable, but in my particular case it was far more beneficial to do what I did. I still have the option of continuing my education, and I fully intend to. I simply made the best possible financial moves given my particular situation.

Edited November 19, 2009 by 46Young

[VentMedic]

Don't get me wrong, EMS should be a degreed profession, but it isn't at the moment. I've been focusing on the financial angle as compensation is a major component when considering a career path. All I'm saying is that one needs to consider all factors when planning a career path, to truly make a fully informed decision. Opportunity cost is rarely discussed.

It is great that you want a good retirement but money should not be the only motivator. I could work in the coal mines in the midwest and make more than a FF while building a decent retirement. However, I do not want that job regardless of the pay and retirement. The same for the FD. I did it for 10 years and found it did not fulfill what I wanted to do as a Paramedic even though it was a decent department. I also knew things would change as they now have with the mega county wide mergers. You go from a department of 50 Paramedics oto of over 2000 in a couple of years and the system is stressed.

I will not work at a job just for the money. Being stuck in a job that offers you little in satisfaction or your heart is not in it does a disservice to you, your family, your employer and the people you serve.

I am fortunate that my education, the A.S. in EMS, got me a lead into CCT/Specialty and Flight. Without it I may not have been able to have the advantage over 200 other applicants with just my "fire medic" patch and experience to rely on since they were looking for people who understood the basic priniciples of pharmacology and disease processes and not just someone who can memorize a recipe book.

Also, you went on and on about teamwork and dedication in the OCFA thread. Yet, you say you joined the FD primarily for the money and benefits like Diazepam did also. If I was a FF, I would say BS to your "teamwork" comments when you tell me over and over again about being in it for the money. You seem to miss the fire fighting aspects of the job like you did the patient care part with being a Paramedic. Thus, I would never trust you as a FF to watch my back even if you got to the Academy at 0300 to show how enthusiastic you are...to get a paycheck...and not fight fires or save lives.

I would also cringe if I was still in the FD with all those FFs coming in just because they want to make money. How safe is that? They know once they get in the union will protect them regardless of how lazy and what screwups they are. Before long FDs as well as the EMS side of it will be in shambles with all those who are in it for the wrong reasons just as some have in EMS. The 18 week Fire Academy might seem tough and only a few are selected. But, when Oakland, CA got over 10,000 applicants, they had a difficult time finding 20 qualified people out of those to send to the Academy. Thus, when some say the "best of the best" what they actually mean is the "best in comparison to the rest".

Now, back to education. You would be amazed at the number of opportunities that appear if you have an education to your name even if you don't immediately use it. I would never tell a young person to get a well paying/benefited factory or even FD job and pass up the opportunity to get an education when they are young whether it is in EMS or not. Later when the familly comes along they will be in the same boat at you. You can't find time and have all the "grown up" excuses for not advancing your education. Thus, your income is stuck at what the FD says it is and if you become disabled which can easily happen on or off the job, you will be trying to exist on a fixed income and your pension counting days will be over. You will not have anything to show for all that math you've been doing. I've seen this happen way to often in FDs and EMS providers. An education is something no one can take away from you and you can usually make use of it sometime in your life even if it is just to climb the ladder at the FD for a better pension. It beats being stuck in one pay class your entire life and just moving with the herd. People who are medically inclined usually want more from their lives and career than just settling for a job. There are still a lot of opportunites out there for those who don't just want to settle for a job at the FD where EMS is not all that great in some places...probably because few are in the FDs now to be either a FF or Paramedic by true ambition.

There is also a work ethic that you must pass on to your kids and I truly hope you won't try to steer them away from education to settle for a job that they will be unhappy with and regret doing for the rest of their lives regardless of how big the pay check is. While in college they are given a chance to explore who they are and not the image you think they should be because it was good enough for you. Don't stall or destroy their ambitions or potential. Self worth is sometimes of a greater value.

My next step was to get into a position that earns a pension. I briefly considered FDNY EMS, and then dismissed that idea. I reconsidered getting my RN, either by going to a CC or through Excelsior, like many of my co-workers. This program was still regarded well, and this was NY, where the program originates.

Excelsior? Here again you contradict your penny wise comments by wanting to go through an expensive program like this that is always under scrutiny. Since you are now in Virginia, to still consider Excelsior, you would either have to move back to NY or use that as an excuse as to why you didn't get your RN. You need to investigate your education alternatives as well as you do your checkbook.

From the Excelsior website:

Virginia

Effective May, 2008: Virginia Board of Nursing has passed a new regulation that says anyone not enrolled with Excelsior College by April 2 of 2008 will not be allowed to sit for state boards. Those who were enrolled as of April 2, 2008, will have to complete their degree by December 31, 2009.

Edited November 19, 2009 by VentMedic

[46Young]

It is great that you want a good retirement but money should not be the only motivator. I could work in the coal mines in the midwest and make more than a FF while building a decent retirement. However, I do not want that job regardless of the pay and retirement. The same for the FD. I did it for 10 years and found it did not fulfill what I wanted to do as a Paramedic even though it was a decent department. I also knew things would change as they now have with the mega county wide mergers. You go from a department of 50 Paramedics oto of over 2000 in a couple of years and the system is stressed.

I will not work at a job just for the money. Being stuck in a job that offers you little in satisfaction or your heart is not in it does a disservice to you, your family, your employer and the people you serve.

I am fortunate that my education, the A.S. in EMS, got me a lead into CCT/Specialty and Flight. Without it I may not have been able to have the advantage over 200 other applicants with just my "fire medic" patch and experience to rely on since they were looking for people who understood the basic priniciples of pharmacology and disease processes and not just someone who can memorize a recipe book.

Also, you went on and on about teamwork and dedication in the OCFA thread. Yet, you say you joined the FD primarily for the money and benefits like Diazepam did also. If I was a FF, I would say BS to your "teamwork" comments when you tell me over and over again about being in it for the money. You seem to miss the fire fighting aspects of the job like you did the patient care part with being a Paramedic. Thus, I would never trust you as a FF to watch my back even if you got to the Academy at 0300 to show how enthusiastic you are...to get a paycheck...and not fight fires or save lives.

I would also cringe if I was still in the FD with all those FFs coming in just because they want to make money. How safe is that? They know once they get in the union will protect them regardless of how lazy and what screwups they are. Before long FDs as well as the EMS side of it will be in shambles with all those who are in it for the wrong reasons just as some have in EMS. The 18 week Fire Academy might seem tough and only a few are selected. But, when Oakland, CA got over 10,000 applicants, they had a difficult time finding 20 qualified people out of those to send to the Academy. Thus, when some say the "best of the best" what they actually mean is the "best in comparison to the rest".

Now, back to education. You would be amazed at the number of opportunities that appear if you have an education to your name even if you don't immediately use it. I would never tell a young person to get a well paying/benefited factory or even FD job and pass up the opportunity to get an education when they are young whether it is in EMS or not. Later when the familly comes along they will be in the same boat at you. You can't find time and have all the "grown up" excuses for not advancing your education. Thus, your income is stuck at what the FD says it is and if you become disabled which can easily happen on or off the job, you will be trying to exist on a fixed income and your pension counting days will be over. You will not have anything to show for all that math you've been doing. I've seen this happen way to often in FDs and EMS providers. An education is something no one can take away from you and you can usually make use of it sometime in your life even if it is just to climb the ladder at the FD for a better pension. It beats being stuck in one pay class your entire life and just moving with the herd. People who are medically inclined usually want more from their lives and career than just settling for a job. There are still a lot of opportunites out there for those who don't just want to settle for a job at the FD where EMS is not all that great in some places...probably because few are in the FDs now to be either a FF or Paramedic by true ambition.

There is also a work ethic that you must pass on to your kids and I truly hope you won't try to steer them away from education to settle for a job that they will be unhappy with and regret doing for the rest of their lives regardless of how big the pay check is. While in college they are given a chance to explore who they are and not the image you think they should be because it was good enough for you. Don't stall or destroy their ambitions or potential. Self worth is sometimes of a greater value.

Excelsior? Here again you contradict your penny wise comments by wanting to go through an expensive program like this that is always under scrutiny. Since you are now in Virginia, to still consider Excelsior, you would either have to move back to NY or use that as an excuse as to why you didn't get your RN. You need to investigate your education alternatives as well as you do your checkbook.

From the Excelsior website:

Virginia

Effective May, 2008: Virginia Board of Nursing has passed a new regulation that says anyone not enrolled with Excelsior College by April 2 of 2008 will not be allowed to sit for state boards. Those who were enrolled as of April 2, 2008, will have to complete their degree by December 31, 2009.

I never said that I don't enjoy medic work or firefighting. But since I have mouths to feed, I didn't have the time to put forth for a degree. We were increasing our revolving debt too quickly for our liking. We work jobs to support ourselves. It's only natural to seek the most prosperous route. People say that they do EMS or firefighting for love of the job, not to become wealthy. I simply refused to accept that, and chose instead to change my reality. If you're going to do what you love, do it for the best compensation package possible. I go to work with a smile on my face every day. It doesn't even feel like work. Understandable, as many volunteer on both sides. I have love for both sides of the job, and I'm becoming wealthy as well. If lucrative firemedic jobs weren't available, I would've completed a degree in nursing, as that would have been the best option.

I would recommend to that the individual in their late teens to mid 20's to take the time to complete a degree. When the bills need to be paid, compensation becomes the main motivating factor. Again, I never said not to pursue a degree, but only to consider all factors before deciding on a path. the opportunity was there for the firemedic job, so I went with it. It pays off, and doesn't negate my degree aspirations. There are many out of work college grads out there currently. Choose your career wisely.

My insurance will replace my salary 100% should I become disabled/injured, and I can still complete a degree (or two, or three). There are numerous avenues for career development both here and within the county, and many require degrees. You tell me that I'm "locked" into a certain salary, to which I say "Yes, and I'm lucky have such a generous earning potential". My Capt earns exactly twice my base hourly. That's way more than an experienced BSN makes around here.

I understand the desire to excel in your chosen profession, to continually improve that profession, and general job satisfaction. I'm a realist. I could never be a teacher making peanuts with a Master's. I could have went to school and did reasonably well afterwards. Instead, I successfully pursued employment, in a thoroughly enjoyable position, that compensates (and will continue to compensate) well in excess of what I would have earned the other way. I know, I circumvented the educational process and do better than most. If that opportunity wansn't there, I would have earned a degree by now. Some call it taking the easy route, I call it taking the intelligent route, for my situation. Again, for the young person, a degree would be the best choice, bar none. You'll be 22-24 y/o and armed to the teeth with education, My route is more suited for someone farther along in their life, and differing financial needs.

Hey, with all this money I'm making my childrens' 529's will be adequate for college costs. I'd like to send them into the adult world debt free with a strong understanding of personal finance.

Also, you forget that when I was considering Excelsior, it was back in '05, when the program was in good standing. I watched many complete the program, get hired locally (NYC and Long Island), and do well. At the time, I knew nothing of the inadequacies of the program. it sounded like wa win-win proposition. Complete the dergree on your own time, and go away to complete your skills at the end. Very work friendly. Excelsior graduates expressed no difficulty in getting hired, or difficulty in job performance when questioned. This is all I had available to go on at the time. What the site says now, what states added additional requirements or not recognizing the program now, weren't the same 4 years ago. It was all good back then. Truth be told, if I were to go with RN as a career, I would have went to the CC, in prep for eventual advancement to BSN, maybe NP or something. Having the option to do a medic-RN bridge was a factor in choosing medic school over an RN degree at the time.

You may say that I'm doing it just for the money, but I'm making more than many college graduates, have excellent salary, benefits, job security, job satisfaction, a three year DROP (that alone is worth 400-500k), and plenty of room for advancement. Everyone has their price. How many would quit their jobs, or at least quit working FT if they hit the lottery? It's an extreme example, but it's really the same thing. How many would leave their chosen career as a condition of an offering for a 5 million dollar payout?

Edited November 19, 2009 by 46Young

[CBEMT]

look buddy I have a car payment , wife/kid and girlfriend on the side and guess what it all cost money.

Why am I not surprised?

[armymedic571]

Ahem...

Canada...

That is all...

It still amazes me the discussions that persist on the need of EMS education in the USA. These discussions don't happen in Ontario (and I would imagine the rest of Canada). You don't hear people trying to rationalize away the need for a 2 year college diploma to be BLS in Ontario. The need for a further 1-2 years to be ALS or critical care. You don't want to do the education? You aren't in EMS, period. There is NO ONE educated in Ontario in paramedicine in the last 10 years (well, there are a very small minority with less but anyway) that DOES NOT have a 2 year college degree MINIMUM to work BLS in the province.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people that post on this forum would never be able to work in Ontario, or a large portion of Canada without totally restarting the educational process.

Oh, and save the "arrogant Canadian" post that I'm sure will come up.

HAhahahahahahahahahahaha. I love this.

More to the point, I think your proving our point for us.

What some people on th is forum fail to realize is that, yes you can JUST get a cert. and play paramedic, but doesn't make it right. Increasing our professional standards is the only way to improve our profession.

It is the only way to improve scope of practice, patient care, and yes pay/benefits.

Maybe my rep will go to hell like Diazepam for saying this, but maybe we can learn a thing or two from our friends up North.

PS-I served with some brothers in arms from the Canadian Military. Arrogent.... Never. You just have to understand the sense of humor.........

[Just Plain Ruff]

What you don't have any bills, or do you still live at home with mom and dad, look buddy I have a car payment , wife/kid and girlfriend on the side and guess what it all cost money.

Well you have shown your true colors Diazamoron. A wife and kids and a girlfriend on the side. A girlfriend so you are a troll and a cheater. You are dirt in my opinion.

[VentMedic]

Well you have shown your true colors Diazamoron. A wife and kids and a girlfriend on the side. A girlfriend so you are a troll and a cheater. You are dirt in my opinion.

Those who post stuff like that probably have neither a wife or a girlfriend and are living in a fantasy world.

I have not seen posts like his on any of the popular FF sites so there is a good chance he is just messing with us here as he knows what would happen if he started posting crap on the FF forums. There are still a lot of FFs who do put their families first right along with their jobs. There are also a few good FF/Paramedics in Southern CA that do try to make the EMS side better and really don't need people like him, if he is one of them, making their job out to be nothing more than a paycheck.

Since there have been so many inconsistencies in his posts, there is a good possibility he is not a FF at all but some wannabe who didn't even make it through Paramedic school and is probably working for some private ambulance in L.A. rather than with the FD since he seems to know more about them than FDs, FFs, Paramedic protocols and medical directors.

Edited November 20, 2009 by VentMedic

[AnthonyM83]

only 80 percent if fire calls are ems related we do more than ems. Again most of the time we stablize and transport to the er for definitive care, no rocket science to this, it's great that everyone wants to make ems a profession, but the reality is that it is a stepping stone job,

For you it's not rocket science, because of the level of EMS provided here. Go work in more advanced systems were you actually have to do some thinking. Of course, you can get away with less (LA does), but doesn't mean you're providing the best service for your patients or citizens. It's a stepping stone job here, because that's the way the system is set up. There are people in other parts of the state and country who do private EMS because they care about EMS and patients. I honestly want THOSE guys responding when I'm in serious need.

that model works where I live, maybe not in other places.

Says who, our medical directors? Talk to the patients who have mortality/morbidity because of faults in the system. It rarely gets back to those in charge.

look buddy I have a car payment , wife/kid and girlfriend on the side and guess what it all cost money.

So, you're saying you cheat on your wife (and in effect your kids)? And you're saying this in order to get "standing" with us? That just shows how screwed up your mind is.

You have low personal boundaries and decision-making skills, as well as ethics. That shows poor personal strength. To think your kids (you brought them into this conversation) are going to be imprinted off of your values, thought processes, and behaviors...