paramedic school

[Diazepam618]

If you want to make some $$$$, get your RN, if you want to be a hero get into medic school as fast as you can so the FD can pick you, but if you want to make peanuts be a private medic.

[armymedic571]

You also failed to calculate what advancements in education can bring someone in terms of salary. You are essentially calculating on a blue collar basis. Someone who holds a degree can advance quickly through the FD ranks to an impressive salary toward their retirement, much more than a basic FF. Those wages that even a FF makes now may be small fry in 10 years. Also, as far as Southern CA, one can just pull all that OT just so long to make ends meet as a FF. They are by far not the better paid in that state when compared with other places.

Vent. This is a good point, but I need to remind everyone that there are still areas in th is country where your education, no matter how impressive, means nothing....

Unfortunate, but true.

Edited November 17, 2009 by armymedic571

[46Young]

Your numbers are impressive but he should also invest in his future in education. Tech education is almost nonexistent in the medial professions. If EMS ever gets its start at becoming part of the medical professions, those who skimped on education and just did the bare minimum may be severely penalized in the future. The old dogs may not have to worry if they are grandfathered and are ready to move on or out. However, the young people just starting out could have it rough if they graduate from a medic mill. Also, figure up the cost of that $12K loan at 10% over the next 15 - 20 years. And, you don't even get a degree or even transferable credits.

You also failed to calculate what advancements in education can bring someone in terms of salary. You are essentially calculating on a blue collar basis. Someone who holds a degree can advance quickly through the FD ranks to an impressive salary toward their retirement, much more than a basic FF. Those wages that even a FF makes now may be small fry in 10 years. Also, as far as Southern CA, one can just pull all that OT just so long to make ends meet as a FF. They are by far not the better paid in that state when compared with other places.

The FDs also do not know what the future holds for them. I truly believe those that advanced beyond the tech mentality will be the leaders to determine the destiny of EMS. It is a shame that some FDs really do want to keep EMS as just a trade school profession and not look to where even their own reimbursement dollars may have to come from when the taxpayors are not going to hand over their money so easily for so little when it comes to ALS care in their community. Not everyone wants or needs only a taxi ride to the hospital.

I would never want to discourage someone, especially a young person, against college or tell them it is not a good investment or that they should just for for a tech cert and the money. There are too many people in the automotive industry that are kicking themselves for at least not getting a two year degree right after high school. Too many in several industries have lost their pensions and investments due to industry changes and that even includes some in health care. If you have nothing but a tech cert, you may be SOL.

I never said not to go to college. I said that if you have no aspirations past being a field paramedic, college isn't necessary. And if you do go to college, go to a community college rather than a private university if it won't affect job placement. Same thing for FF's who prefer not to promote.

Now, consider someone who goes to school for three years, vs someone who goes for only one. This person invests 20k, 10 the first year, and 10 the second, at 10%, with no future investments. After 28 more years, they'll have 375k. In 38 years, they'll have $1,001600. Three years of investing 10k will grow to 1,450,000 after 40 years total. Now, investing 10k (rather than pursuing a four year degree) for 4 years at 10% will result in 51051. That will grow into $2,033,000 at the end of 40 years total. The two year college grad will have to save 51k in two years to catch up.

We all know that someone who commands a higher salary is more than likely to increase their spending to match that. The blue collar worker can actually end up with more than a white collar professional in retirement if they know what they're doing.

I'm not saying not to go to college, only that one should be mindful of the opportunity cost of doing so. Unless you're in a pension program. A 150k annual pension (we will surely have more when I decide to retire) is equal to 3,000,000 in a bond fund (or whatever) giving off 5% annually as income. Someone who is able to save 10k/yr pre tax including a 4-6% company match for just 10 years are already there and then some. It's not so much how much you invest, but for how long. Now imagine having both a pension AND 2 mil or so in deferred comp. That's one reason why I'm so in favor of pensions.Doctors are really behind the 8 ball nowadays. People need to be mindful of how much they need in retirement.

Too bad medic-RN bridges leave much to be desired. It would have been a great way to have your cake and eat it too.

Edited November 18, 2009 by 46Young

[VentMedic]

Vent. This is a good point, but I need to remind everyone that there are still areas in th is country where your education, no matter how impressive, means nothing....

Unfortunate, but true.

But, when it comes to being a medical professional, one should not just settle for the bare minimum especially when that minimum is measured in "hours of training". You are providing care to patients and not putting seats in cars. Patients deserve a health care provider who is there for them even though a good retirement plan is nice.

There is not another health care professional that can now say a degree is not necessary. Many employers are now requiring at least one degree higher than the minimum. For RN, many positions are wanting a BSN as the 2 year degree is just not enough any longer for the fast pace of medicine in many places. The same for RRT. The RN and the RRT are also now way behind what the other allied health professions require.

If one just wants to be a FF like Diazepam618 who has no interest in anything medical, then so be it. A few weeks at a Fire Academy should be enough and I do not agree that those like Diazepam618 should be made to take a Paramedic course. It just shows how ridiculously dumbed down the Paramedic patch has become in some areas and drags down the profession.

I never said not to go to college. I said that if you have no aspirations past being a field paramedic, college isn't necessary.

Why should the degree only be for those who want to move on to RN or some other profession?

Why is education not necessary for the "field" Paramedic?

I find this rather insulting especially for those who have gotten a degree as a Paramedic to provide care at a more educated level rather than just from what is learned in a 10th grade text book.

Again, this tech mentality has to go away for this profession to gain respect and take its place amongst the other professionals to gain any type of recognition from those that make the legislation for reimbursement. A mere 2 year degree is not much considering what other professions, medical and non-medial, require.

Too bad medic-RN bridges leave much to be desired. It would have been a great way to have your cake and eat it too.

You are truly a minimalist. The RN is but a 2 year degree. Right now the Paramedic cert in CA and most other states is only about "1000 hours of training". Do you really consider that too much or a whole lifetime of education and totally unobtainable? You have really been hanging out with some very unmotivated FFs way too long.

[RavEMTGun]

46Young you are making a LOT of assumptions, most of them questionable.

1. The assumptions of poor spending habits by the college grad but good investing discipline by the non-college person.

2. Assuming that the college student does not work and earn money while in college.

3. Assumption that the non-college student has the ability to pay that extra 10K up front for the tech course.

4. Assumption that the student has ability to invest this mythical $10K in order to make the earnings difference (or that they can get that fantabulous 10% rate).

5. You are ignoring the chance college students have to get a student loan or grant which will let the acquire education without delay. Tech students do not have this opportunity. Therefor, you fail to account for missed earnings for the non-college person who is forced to spend time in a lesser paying job saving money to be spent on tech school.

6. You are also mischaracterizing the length of an AAS Paramedicine versus a tech school options. Tech school is generally going to be 6-12 months (we aren't counting medic mills). You are cheating yourself if you don't do college level A&P and many tech schools require it anyways. AAS Paramedic Programs are generally the same length as the trade school for the paramedic portion. One will find that there is really only about 1 extra semester of courses required to earn an AAS in paramedicine, and those courses could actually be done by the student when they are doing A&P.

7. You are also making a fatal assumption: that the education requirements for paramedicine will remain static. AAS will hopefully become the minimum.

CONCLUSION: Really, you are making a lot of weak arguments and strawman arguments for tech school being more lucrative. Your argument only works for a small subset of people with very limited aspirations under certain conditional futures. It's a bad bet for the individual and it's a bad bet for EMS. Why push that agenda at all?

If you want to make some $$$$, get your RN, if you want to be a hero get into medic school as fast as you can so the FD can pick you, but if you want to make peanuts be a private medic.

Your troglodyte attitude is irritating.

Don't be an RN for the money. You'd better be smart enough and want to do the job. BTW, it's REALLY hard to find a job as a new graduate these days in many areas (having a BSN helps and may eventually become the minimum). There just aren't new grad positions available due the bad economy + schools being flooded by people who think that RN=easy$.

Your "be a hero, be a medic ASAP" comment reeks of a lack of professionalism. You honestly seem much more interested in fire than medicine. So why are you on this forum anyways?

Edited November 18, 2009 by RavEMTGun

[46Young]

But, when it comes to being a medical professional, one should not just settle for the bare minimum especially when that minimum is measured in "hours of training". You are providing care to patients and not putting seats in cars. Patients deserve a health care provider who is there for them even though a good retirement plan is nice.

There is not another health care professional that can now say a degree is not necessary. Many employers are now requiring at least one degree higher than the minimum. For RN, many positions are wanting a BSN as the 2 year degree is just not enough any longer for the fast pace of medicine in many places. The same for RRT. The RN and the RRT are also now way behind what the other allied health professions require.

If one just wants to be a FF like Diazepam618 who has no interest in anything medical, then so be it. A few weeks at a Fire Academy should be enough and I do not agree that those like Diazepam618 should be made to take a Paramedic course. It just shows how ridiculously dumbed down the Paramedic patch has become in some areas and drags down the profession.

Why should the degree only be for those who want to move on to RN or some other profession?

Why is education not necessary for the "field" Paramedic?

I find this rather insulting especially for those who have gotten a degree as a Paramedic to provide care at a more educated level rather than just from what is learned in a 10th grade text book.

Again, this tech mentality has to go away for this profession to gain respect and take its place amongst the other professionals to gain any type of recognition from those that make the legislation for reimbursement. A mere 2 year degree is not much considering what other professions, medical and non-medial, require.

You are truly a minimalist. The RN is but a 2 year degree. Right now the Paramedic cert in CA and most other states is only about "1000 hours of training". Do you really consider that too much or a whole lifetime of education and totally unobtainable? You have really been hanging out with some very unmotivated FFs way too long.

Just because it isn't a college doesn't necessarily make it an inferior education in regards to preparation for the field. It's all about which program you go to. Maybe it was just in NYC, but I didn't notice a difference in proficiency from tech graduates and degree medics. Great on the job training fir 911 with only ALS call types with a high volume of high acuity pts. There are also two great hospitals that do IFT, NSLIJ and NY Presbyterian (Cornell). Both systems enjoy a decent scope of practice and autonomy. Low percentage of degreed medics there. Maybe NY medics, many of who were educated at the cert level only, should be insulted by your insinuations that non-degreed medics are largely incapable and inadequate in regards to pt care.

Maybe EMS doesn't compare to other healthcare professions in regards to educational requirements currently, but it doesn't have to. In my example, one could go to a tech school and get the jump on retirement and other savings over the degree medic, assuming they only want to stay in EMS. If they want to get degree status, they could always do it a few years later, when they're commanding a higher salary. the point is, unless you have plans to advance your career, obtaining a degree holds absolutely no financial benefit.

As far as being a minimalist, anyone who needs to work FT will find it next to impossible to pursue a degree as a RRT, ASN/BSN, or PA, as these courses don't allow for piecemeal completion, only FT dedication. The cert medic will have the luxury of upgrading piecemeal, as did RT's and others. Newcomers are afforded no such convenience. So, if a medic-RN bridge program were adequate as prep for the field, then why wouldn't one seek to go that route?

My FD covets education. It's weighted heavily for promotion purposes. All in house EMT-medic upgrades are given at NOVA CC, which is a degree program. Qualified medics, as in medics that can successfully complete the lengthy hiring process, complete the fire academy, and the ALS internship are in short supply. If there was this supposed medic surplus nationwide, then the dept might require degrees. Tall order though, since the vast majority of medics were eduated at the cert level.

[46Young]

46Young you are making a LOT of assumptions, most of them questionable.

1. The assumptions of poor spending habits by the college grad but good investing discipline by the non-college person.

2. Assuming that the college student does not work and earn money while in college.

3. Assumption that the non-college student has the ability to pay that extra 10K up front for the tech course.

4. Assumption that the student has ability to invest this mythical $10K in order to make the earnings difference (or that they can get that fantabulous 10% rate).

5. You are ignoring the chance college students have to get a student loan or grant which will let the acquire education without delay. Tech students do not have this opportunity. Therefor, you fail to account for missed earnings for the non-college person who is forced to spend time in a lesser paying job saving money to be spent on tech school.

6. You are also mischaracterizing the length of an AAS Paramedicine versus a tech school options. Tech school is generally going to be 6-12 months (we aren't counting medic mills). You are cheating yourself if you don't do college level A&P and many tech schools require it anyways. AAS Paramedic Programs are generally the same length as the trade school for the paramedic portion. One will find that there is really only about 1 extra semester of courses required to earn an AAS in paramedicine, and those courses could actually be done by the student when they are doing A&P.

7. You are also making a fatal assumption: that the education requirements for paramedicine will remain static. AAS will hopefully become the minimum.

CONCLUSION: Really, you are making a lot of weak arguments and strawman arguments for tech school being more lucrative. Your argument only works for a small subset of people with very limited aspirations under certain conditional futures. It's a bad bet for the individual and it's a bad bet for EMS. Why push that agenda at all?

Your troglodyte attitude is irritating.

Don't be an RN for the money. You'd better be smart enough and want to do the job. BTW, it's REALLY hard to find a job as a new graduate these days in many areas (having a BSN helps and may eventually become the minimum). There just aren't new grad positions available due the bad economy + schools being flooded by people who think that RN=easy$.

Your "be a hero, be a medic ASAP" comment reeks of a lack of professionalism. You honestly seem much more interested in fire than medicine. So why are you on this forum anyways?

History has shown that the vast majority of individuals have a poor financial eduaction, as evidenced by overextended credit, real estate speculation, underfunding 401k's etc. etc. Our example shows how one of a lesser salary can come out ahead of one that is more gainfully employed.

Most college students don't work FT. I have never met any that contribute to an IRA while completing a degree.

In this hypothetical situation, the candidate needs to decide whether or not to go the degree route, for financial reasons. In NY, they're only 7k or less. You make that back in the first year, plus more available OT and per diem work.

My retirement portfolio is divided up int 75% equities, 15% bonds, and small hedge positions in gold, REIT's, and cash. We further divide up these asset classes into large/medium/small cap growth/value, and mainly intermediate term bonds, gov't and investment grade, with small allocations for short and long term. We use percentage based portfolio rebalancing to ensure that we're always selling low and buying high. This reduces volatility, but dosen't hamper growth. As you know, it mathematically twice as difficult for equities to rise than it is to fall. We use primarily ETF's, as retail funds are subject to bracket creep, high turnover, and style drift. Not mythical at all. It isn't that difficult. Consult with a good financial advisor in regards.

A tech school may feature a watered down version of A&P and pharm. It isn't optimal, but you'll still get hired, and you can complete these requirements after graduation, at your leisure if you desire.

As for me having a "fatal assumption" I feel that's a bit dramatic. If, and that's a BIG if we are required to become degreed medics, we'll have a period of time in which we can upgrade piecemeal, like other healthcare professions before us. It's FT professionals in other fields that want to become medics that would be at a disadvantage at thet point.

I'm not anti - education per se, but I'm showing that there are other ways to go about things, other routes to prosperity. Tell me why it's lucrative to carry a big, long mortgage. Form one, tell me why it's lucrative to pull money out of your house. Tell me why prepaying your mortgage is foolish. I'll run financial rings around most (maybe not MBA's and the like) with four year degrees with my career choice, future degree aspirations, and financial strategies. I'm a tech school graduate and an accounting dropout currently.

Edited November 18, 2009 by 46Young

[Timmy]

Don't be an RN for the money. You'd better be smart enough and want to do the job. BTW, it's REALLY hard to find a job as a new graduate these days in many areas (having a BSN helps and may eventually become the minimum). There just aren't new grad positions available due the bad economy + schools being flooded by people who think that RN=easy$.

You've got that right! It's any wonder why Australia is thousands of Nurses short...

[VentMedic]

Just because it isn't a college doesn't necessarily make it an inferior education in regards to preparation for the field.

I am only talking about the medical professions. However, I think you may find Accountants and quite a few other professions on the same page.

Name one licensed health care profession that relies on a tech school cert.

About the only one I know of is the LVN which is no longer utilized is some states. I haven't seen an LVN in the area hospital systems in over 20 years. The few that are still there are working as PCTs which are CNAs with a few more skills and a little more education. The title of LVN is no longer recognized or placed on any name badge.

As for me having a "fatal assumption" I feel that's a bit dramatic. If, and that's a BIG if we are required to become degreed medics, we'll have a period of time in which we can upgrade piecemeal, like other health care professions before us. It's FT professionals in other fields that want to become medics that would be at a disadvantage at thet point.

Upgrade piece mill? RT and RN did not put in a few extra piece mill patches between diploma and degree. They announced the degree would be the minimum and gave about a 5 year notice. LVN and CRTTs were put on notice that they get their advanced credentials or they would no longer find themselves working in their same job areas. A few RTs were grand fathered but the hospitals embraced the educational requirements but then, the hospitals actually started rerquiring a degree for employment long before it became official. Thus, there were not many nondegreed RTs still hanging around when the change occured. If you do a little researching you will find this is true for the other allied health professions and the coming NP education requirements.

Why is it that every other health care profession has a degree? Many go into it for a career. If another professional wants to change careers they probably already expect some work to do so. An Accountant or Engineer would understand the importance of education. Have you ever heard of a 6 month bookkeeper tell a Graduate school Accountant that their college education is useless? Would I want a 6 month tech school bookkeeper representing me with the IRS?

A tech school may feature a watered down version of A&P and pharm. It isn't optimal, but you'll still get hired, and you can complete these requirements after graduation, at your leisure if you desire.

Should this be good enough for patients? Is patient care all about your leisure?

Why waste time at an expensive tech school earning credits that transfer nowhere? Why would anyone then start over if when the college tells them they are not giving credits for half-arses A&P classes?

You say you are not anti education but then are you anti Paramedic? Do you believe the Paramedic should not join the ranks of the other medical professionals for legislative recognition?

Do you believe the Paramedic is nothing more than a first aider with a feel extra advanced skills and thus a tech school training will suffice?

I know you have read my posts about how and why other professions have advanced their education and I am really puzzled that you claim to be pro EMS as a FF but can not seem to see them as medical professionals. If you do not want to advance with EMS then you really should consider if you only got the Paramedic patch for a few extra dollars from the FD for your pension and not for the patient care aspect of the job. Your posts lately have only been about what the job can do for your bank account and not what you can do for the patient. Even when you were talking about getting a degree as an RN or RRT in other threads, you mentioned very little about the job or the patient care aspect. Neither you or Diazepam618 are a credit to Fire Based EMS when you fail to realize there is a patient involved.

Edited November 18, 2009 by VentMedic

[Diazepam618]

I know you have read my posts about how and why other professions have advanced their education and I am really puzzled that you claim to be pro EMS as a FF but can not seem to see them as medical professionals. If you do not want to advance with EMS then you really should consider if you only got the Paramedic patch for a few extra dollars from the FD for your pension and not for the patient care aspect of the job. Your posts lately have only been about what the job can do for your bank account and not what you can do for the patient. Even when you were talking about getting a degree as an RN or RRT in other threads, you mentioned very little about the job or the patient care aspect. Neither you or Diazepam618 are a credit to Fire Based EMS when you fail to realize there is a patient involved.