confusion in which Course I should do and paramedic types help

[High Speed Chaser]

I'm hearing conflicting things about the single degree paramedics courses at Vic Uni and Monash. I'm a bit confused and not really sure which Uni I want to go to as some people tell me VU is better and at the moment and some tell me Monash is better. I have been told that Vic Uni is more hands on and a larger percentage get hired with AV and I'm starting to lean towards doing that course instead of Monash.

Could people please give me some advice.

Ballarat (ACU) and Shepparton (La Trobe) are out

Also need to clarify the difference between a graduate and qualified paramedic in AV as I have a feeling it might have changed recently. When one completes a Uni Course and is hired by AV, are they a qualified paramedic or a graduate.

Thanks

[BushyFromOz]

ok....

Monash or VU. AV cant select candidates based on which uni you went to, so this VU v's Monash students and which one gets hired more often really comes down to who interviews better on an individual basis, you will have the same chances of getting hired as any other eligible graduate.

As to course content, i think youll find that they are slightly different....VU seems (though i'll happily stand corrected) has a bit more emphasis on "fluff" subjects, research, organisational theory, ethics etc than Monash which is not a bad thing... it will give services a pool of people with slightly different backgrounds to draw from instead of everyone being a clone of the next blokw who wants a job. Monash seems to have a better science base behind it. Bear in mind i went to neither Monash or VU, CSU is a bit different again, but thats another story.

When one completes a Uni Course and is hired by AV, are they a qualified paramedic or a graduate.

Thanks

ill break it down for you if i can

we have 2 types of student Graduate Paramedics (GAP's) and Student Paramedic Transition (SPT)

GAP's have finished their degree prior to starting with AV in the first six months they are under direct supervision, meaning they are always partnered with a CI. When operating with a CI, they can perform ANY ALS intervention as long as it is supervised (and appropriate) If you are operating at a satisfactory level at the end of the supervised period you then become "indirectly supervised", you will work with any ALS/MICA paramedic (not other students-least that's whats supposed to happen) and you are supervised by the clinical department by way of monthly case sheet audits via a CSO

Direct supervision GAOS' have a single blue bar and a caduces on their epaullettes, Indirect have the blue caduces and the words "graduate paramedic" in their eppaulettes.

I think you confusion is that the ambulance servcie and uni's refer to GAP's as being "qualified but not road ready" in terms of education, but does not mean they are actually a qualified paramedic per se, so new students are hired as graduates.

SPT's are students who have finished the second year of their degree and MUST finish the remaining year via distance education. The SPT program is 2 years as it takes that long to finish your degree. It has the same 6 months as a direct supervision and 18 months as indirect supervision. SPT have a single blue bar when in direct supervision, and 3 blue bars when in indirect supervision (no one wears 2 blue bars anymore) This method of recruiting is supposed to be discontinued in the future.

QAP are Paramedic's who after having done their 1 year GAP program or 2 year SPT program have been found to be practicing competently at the ALS standard as set down by the service.

Now, the kicker....what i wrote may or may not be correct...initially after the RAV/MAS merger, the RAV GAP/SPT program was supposed to be adopted, and it was, for a couple of months...and has steadily been watered down so that it is more like the old MAS student program, but if it varies it won't vary much from what i wrote.

Hope this helps mate

[melclin]

First of all, as you probably know, I go to Monash so I have an obvious bias.

In terms of how the universities are regarded, Monash is the 4 best uni is Australia and ranked 45 in the world. VU doesn't even make the top 20 and from memory it doesn't make the top 500 in the world.

While this may not have a direct relationship to how good a paramedic program they have, it still counts. If you want to do a nursing crossover, post graduate work, research, are applying for a job in other areas, maybe even paramedic jobs in other states, go on to do ECP/paramedic practitioner/M-Physicians Assistant, the fact that you went to Monash will probably count in your favour. VU was a technical college until not that long ago; most people don't even realize you can get a degree from there. I hear (and this is only hear say) that their recent history is reflected in their teaching ethos. They apparently are very skills orientated and tend not to teach the underlying A&P very well. I notice that they have recently put together a few pretend subjects (although Monash has been known to do this as well) to bolster the appearance of a broader education. They recently have started a system where by they rush you through in two years, I've heard nothing but bad things about those graduates (that said I don't hear a lot of good things about any graduates). I said to Mr.Brown/Kiwimedic a little while ago, that VU appears to be considered by some to be the Victorian "medic mill": massive program, focus on skill, not education and they churn out as many as fast as they can. That said, I don't think the reputation of the uni will affect you directly in the selection process for AV, but obviously a better program will provide a better education, and you will be better prepared for selection.

From one MICA paramedic: "VU students seem to get on the road saying I can tube, I can suture, but you put them in front of a pt and they they're stuck. They're all skills and no knowledge. They get little bits of paper saying they can tube, which is useless, but they can't even do a GCS".

From an ALS CI: "Yeah you can tell the difference between a Monash student and a VU student. The VU guys they know how to do everything, you tell them to set up a nebuliser and bang its done, but they don't know why. You can see Monash students thinking, trying to figure the pt out."

(I've seen this myself running scenarios along side them. It was a triage exercise and they just really didn't seem to have a lot of important underlying knowledge that we take for granted at Monash. The affect of other disease processes on the pt chief complaint seemed to be a big one, eg diabetic neuropathy affecting the presentation of an AMI)

You can kind of see how there is a running theme there. They undoubtedly have better equipment and facilities (although that's going to change in the next few years because Monash is getting worried about the competition from VU, but not by your first year), but that's not really what a degree is about. Do you choose a business degree because the uni has better desks to simulate the office work space? I think Monash has less quantifiable advantages, like the fact that many of our lecturers in other fields are more distinguished than VU, because Monash has more distinguished alumni. We've had a lot of input from the school of preventative medicine/epidemiology, simply because they're part of the same institution and its easy to do. Want ask a question on oxygen metabolism? Easy, just toddle over to the physiology department. Also handy is the fact that because we have a smaller program, most of us have easy, familiar relationships with our lecturers, which makes learning, getting extra prac/tute time, asking questions and getting involved in research much easier.

You can make up for the inadequacies of either universities by your own effort. But trust me, it's a lot easier to make an effort to get a bit more practical time (like we do at Monash) than it is to make an effort to learn entire areas of important academic knowledge that are missed by lecturers (often because you're not even aware that they exist).

As far as employment, be careful with what people tell you when it comes to numbers. There are many ways to warp the truth. For example, VU has a bigger program, so of course a higher percentage of the graduates that get employed are from VU than Monash. I'm not sure what the stats are on employment. We had 100% employment, before VU swamped the market with both 3rd year grads and 2nd year grads. Now its less, but I don't know how it compares to VU, to be honest. BushyFromOz would good to speak to on the topic of how Monash vs VU grads are viewed by the ambulance service, hopefully he chimes in for this thread.

As far as Qualified paramedic/grad/student paramedic. The terminology got a bit skewed when the uni model came along and there was different terminology/programs used by MAS and RAV (from memory), and its been further confused from the uni student point of view, by the merger to form AV. Don't worry about it when choosing you degree, it makes no difference. But as to your question, when they are hired they are transition/grad/student/whatever paramedic, you have to complete your grad year/s (on the road with a Clinical Instructor ...theoretically) and satisfy the various outcome measures to qualify fully. Again Bushy is a much better person to be answering the post grad questions than I.

I'll take the question about choosing degrees to mean your ENTER was high enough to afford you the choice...congrats.

[melclin]

As to course content, i think youll find that they are slightly different....VU seems (though i'll happily stand corrected) has a bit more emphasis on "fluff" subjects, research, organisational theory, ethics etc than Monash which is not a bad thing... it will give services a pool of people with slightly different backgrounds to draw from instead of everyone being a clone of the next blokw who wants a job. Monash seems to have a better science base behind it. Bear in mind i went to neither Monash or VU, CSU is a bit different again, but thats another story.

hehe speak of the devil, thats funny I would have said that Monash could stand to have a little less fluff and more science (not compared to VU, just in general). Some of the fluff is good. Health theory and health systems, were really good looks at the global, national and grass routes influences of health as well as how the systems, whether it be medicare, PBS, primary care etc, all fit together, what actually out there and why. I note that, as of this year, VU appears to have a first year far more similar to our first year than previously, in regards to a subject like this.

All in all though, the actual quality of the education that you get in those classes really depends on the people teaching them, and its really impossible to figure all that out before you start. That difficult-to-quantify 'better education' is something Monash does better I feel.

Peavey do a high gain amp with all the same stats as a Mesa/Boogie Dual rectifier, in fact the Peavey has a few more features (analogous to VUs better facilities), but 'on paper' stats and features does not a Mesa/Boogie make. M/B have been making high quality gear better and for longer - its worth the extra cash - and Monash doesn't even cost more. Forgive my amplification metaphor, it had to happen one of these days. Just wait till I use power amp negative feed back as a metphor for biofeedback.

But chaser, you should speak to someone who bats for the other team, so to speak, to get the other side of the story, just try not have it be the VU sales rep.

[BushyFromOz]

I guess the thing in the end is that no matter which degree you have, in the end, AV can only hold you acountable to one standard of practice and that standard of practice is well within grasp of any graduate regardless of which univeristy they attended. I would suggest that Monash is generally seen to be superior to VU from our point of view, though once your in a bue shirt, we can only judge you by the set standard as i said before.

From one MICA paramedic: "VU students seem to get on the road saying I can tube, I can suture, but you put them in front of a pt and they they're stuck. They're all skills and no knowledge. They get little bits of paper saying they can tube, which is useless, but they can't even do a GCS".

From an ALS CI: "Yeah you can tell the difference between a Monash student and a VU student. The VU guys they know how to do everything, you tell them to set up a nebuliser and bang its done, but they don't know why. You can see Monash students thinking, trying to figure the pt out."

Respectfully, this is an issue from uni students in general, no matter which uni they attend

Edited December 16, 2009 by BushyFromOz

[melclin]

So I just got back from placements in Traralgon and I asked everyone about this question and talked a little about the "student issue".

First of all, every single one of the ~9 paramedics I asked were unequivocal when I asked them VU or Monash (Monash was the winner there), and they all seemed to have a nasty anecdote about a VU student.

To Bushy, re that discussion we had a while back, one of my CIs told me about a student (VU) who wouldn't check the truck, wouldn't run scenarios, wouldn't do signal threes, had a massive superiority complex and was generally unlikable (basically all the stuff you were talking about, so nothing new there, but I was still a little shocked that is seems to happen a bit more than I expected), but get this, she wouldn't go out on a code:1 severe resp distress because she had quote "seen respiratory distress before". I'm not questioning the accuracy of the story, but I find it so hard to believe that their are people out their like that.

[aussiephil]

So I just got back from placements in Traralgon and I asked everyone about this question and talked a little about the "student issue".

First of all, every single one of the ~9 paramedics I asked were unequivocal when I asked them VU or Monash (Monash was the winner there), and they all seemed to have a nasty anecdote about a VU student.

To Bushy, re that discussion we had a while back, one of my CIs told me about a student (VU) who wouldn't check the truck, wouldn't run scenarios, wouldn't do signal threes, had a massive superiority complex and was generally unlikable (basically all the stuff you were talking about, so nothing new there, but I was still a little shocked that is seems to happen a bit more than I expected), but get this, she wouldn't go out on a code:1 severe resp distress because she had quote "seen respiratory distress before". I'm not questioning the accuracy of the story, but I find it so hard to believe that their are people out their like that.

I have had a student try to refuse to do a transfer to nursing home because they didnt want to join ambulance to be a taxi driver.

They were not so politley told to get used to it & to add engineering to their education so they could learn to build a bridge & get over it.

[Timmy]

Which Uni did you get an offer from Chaser?

From what I've heard the LaTrobe course appears to be 2 years of general health science, A&P, community and chronic health, mental health etc etc and your last 2 years are bases around emergency health. It's a new course so I guess you just have to jump in and have a go to find out how good it is. Remember its a double degree and masters program, you'll have your work cut out.

Nursing placement must be so different to paramedic placement. DARE step out of line or display unprofessional behaviour and your out. At my last placement we had to be at handover 10mins before the start, shoes polished, uniform clean and ironed, had to give up your seat for regular staff and doctors, we were assessed on professionalism, attentiveness, communication, posture and body language. I feared the clinical educator, she made me feel sick every time she looked at me in fear she'd race over and scream at me for a minor fault. We were given a pathological and medication research assignment each day, it was expected we complete this in our lunch break and present our findings in evaluation at the end of shift. Not that the thought ever crossed my mind but if you ever wanted to become a Registered Nurse with this clinical educator then you better pay attention and at least pretend to be extremely interested in every thing that was offered to you no matter how trivial.

[aussiephil]

Which Uni did you get an offer from Chaser?

From what I've heard the LaTrobe course appears to be 2 years of general health science, A&P, community and chronic health, mental health etc etc and your last 2 years are bases around emergency health. It's a new course so I guess you just have to jump in and have a go to find out how good it is. Remember its a double degree and masters program, you'll have your work cut out.

Nursing placement must be so different to paramedic placement. DARE step out of line or display unprofessional behaviour and your out. At my last placement we had to be at handover 10mins before the start, shoes polished, uniform clean and ironed, had to give up your seat for regular staff and doctors, we were assessed on professionalism, attentiveness, communication, posture and body language. I feared the clinical educator, she made me feel sick every time she looked at me in fear she'd race over and scream at me for a minor fault. We were given a pathological and medication research assignment each day, it was expected we complete this in our lunch break and present our findings in evaluation at the end of shift. Not that the thought ever crossed my mind but if you ever wanted to become a Registered Nurse with this clinical educator then you better pay attention and at least pretend to be extremely interested in every thing that was offered to you no matter how trivial.

Timmy,

I have heard stories like that in ambulance. I heard of one ICP who, on a 14 hour night shift, told his probationer to list 27 seperate causes of chest pain & their aietology, pathophysiology, signs & symptoms & pre hospital treatments includining full drug doses & repeats & inpatient treatments & outcomes.

[melclin]

I feared the clinical educator, she made me feel sick every time she looked at me in fear she'd race over and scream at me for a minor fault. We were given a pathological and medication research assignment each day, it was expected we complete this in our lunch break and present our findings in evaluation at the end of shift. Not that the thought ever crossed my mind but if you ever wanted to become a Registered Nurse with this clinical educator then you better pay attention and at least pretend to be extremely interested in every thing that was offered to you no matter how trivial.

Yeah that sound pretty much right. I always bring a extra pair of undies lest I do something wrong and get a new arse hole torn for me . I sat in one of my medic's seats at the branch once and got chewed out for about five minutes.

I reckon there's more room for us to use the cases we go to for extended learning. I like to look the up whatever the issue was, go over the differential and treatment and look at what I should do next time. Its a more interesting way of learning when you've just seen the problem you're now reading about. I'd like to see that sort of thing as an official assignment, rather than the short thesis of a bloody reflective journal that I have to write. "How did you feel about you placement"

Edited December 22, 2009 by melclin