Unarmed Tactical Medics

[matt202]

Anecdotal accounts are one thing but is there any hard evidence around the time taken from injury to the time the time EMS gets hands on the patient during swat team deployments? Furthermore is there any evidence in relation to unarmed tactical medics moving forward to manage casualties while the swat team is still dealing with the threat? My reasons for asking are that in my experience in the UK if you are not in there as part of the team you don't get in there until it is safe. This is due to a variety of reasons and i'm asking so as to learn from your experiences to improve our system.

Regards

Matt

[croaker260]

How do you come to the conclusion that immediate medical care was imperative to the patient's survival?

You don't think s/he would have done just as well if the cops had simply dragged him/her out to a waiting ambulance?

Responded off list.

Responded off list.

Well I tried to anyway, Dust, your inbox is full I guess

[armymedic571]

Matt,

There is data and research on this. I would recommend searching "point of wounding care". The US military (for obvious reasons) has done quite a bit of research on this topic. There are some published reports that are unclassified. A google search should yield them.

I will state that these are military studies, and may/maynot correlate to the civilian tactical system you are looking into.

Also....In most tactical medical references that I have read, and practically every class on the subject I have ever taken or taught-----> Fire Superiority is the BEST Medicine on the field.

Let me know how your search goes, I will try to PM you with some of the studies that I have, although they maybe a year or two old.

Edited January 2, 2010 by armymedic571

[croaker260]

Matt,

There is data and research on this. I would recommend searching "point of wounding care". The US military (for obvious reasons) has done quite a bit of research on this topic. There are some published reports that are unclassified. A google search should yield them.

I will state that these are military studies, and may/maynot correlate to the civilian tactical system you are looking into.

Also....In most tactical medical references that I have read, and practically every class on the subject I have ever taken or taught-----> Fire Superiority is the BEST Medicine on the field.

Let me know how your search goes, I will try to PM you with some of the studies that I have, although they maybe a year or two old.

I agree with you, but would like to note that true "fire superiority" in the military sense of the word...is not feasible in civilian Tactical operations...to much collateral damage.

Although I am reminded of this movie.....

Edited January 2, 2010 by croaker260

[maverick56]

Although I am reminded of this movie.....

Haha, nice clip.

As for my take on the whole topic, I agree with armymedic571 and chbare. The role of the TACOPS medic revolves around pre-op planning, SOPs, and cross training (on both sides). Coming from a military background myself, I'll always stand by the truth of fire superiority as the best tactical medicine, but realize that "fire superiority" is not simply more bullets (which is where your collateral damage comes in). It's about well-placed bullets and tactical advantage. Personally, I'm not going anywhere with a TACOPs team without my .45 in a thigh holster and a K-bar on my shoulder. I may never have to use either, hopefully not, but I'll sure feel a hell of lot better knowing they're there.

[armymedic571]

Croaker....nice clip. I like that movie.

I see your point about fire superiority, but it also encompasses speed, and violence of action. Meaning (as Maverick put it) some well placed shoots at the right time.

I think the point that you were trying to make before about weapons in EMS as a whole is this: we as pre-hospital providers stand at a pivotal cross-roads in the civil sevice-medical field. Albeit you may be a exceptional provider, clinician, and mentor. But, if doing the job at 0300 in the snow at 0 degrees on a Friday night, while you drunk patient swears profanities and this upsets you, unnerves you, or is just to much stress for anyone person. Than perhaps you are in the wrong career field.

I think the same analogy can be made for the tactical side. It is part of the job. Don't like it: 1) Become a nurse, or 2) Join the peace corp.

Anywho, just my 2 cents. Time to sleep. I have to get up at 0300 to bring some drunk guy to the trauma center.. Oh yeah, there's snow on the ground, and I am going to bring my Thesaurus.........haha.

[maverick56]

Croaker....nice clip. I like that movie.

I see your point about fire superiority, but it also encompasses speed, and violence of action. -> aka rapid dominance :-) Meaning (as Maverick put it) some well placed shoots at the right time.

I think the point that you were trying to make before about weapons in EMS as a whole is this: we as pre-hospital providers stand at a pivotal cross-roads in the civil sevice-medical field. Albeit you may be a exceptional provider, clinician, and mentor. But, if doing the job at 0300 in the snow at 0 degrees on a Friday night, while you drunk patient swears profanities and this upsets you, unnerves you, or is just to much stress for anyone person. Than perhaps you are in the wrong career field.

I think the same analogy can be made for the tactical side. It is part of the job. Don't like it: 1) Become a nurse, or 2) Join the peace corp.

Anywho, just my 2 cents. Time to sleep. I have to get up at 0300 to bring some drunk guy to the trauma center.. Oh yeah, there's snow on the ground, and I am going to bring my Thesaurus.........haha.

Very well said. Have fun with that drunk ;-)

Edited January 3, 2010 by maverick56

[EMSDoc]

FYI... We have a discussion about arming medics over on our discussion board... http://www.tac-med.org/resources/community-forum/topic?id=12

EMSDoc

[FormerEMSLT297]

As a cop, and Medic i think the MOST important thing to do when the lead is flying is to SHOOT BACK. Having said that, if you are unarmed, hopefully your armed escort will send a wall of hot lead the suspects way, ahile you duck...

The premise of EMT-T is that not much care with the exception of tourniquet takes place in the hot zone, you extract the patient and treat them in the warm zone....

directed effective return fire is your best friend, second only to

Cover and concealment