EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die

[fireflymedic]

I am in no way excusing the actions of these providers. It is my firm belief that the only way to mitigate these types of incidents is to try and gain some sort of lesson from it. This story immediately brings to mind the mid-level provider minimization of symptoms syndrome. I truly believe that if these EMTs had been cognizant of the seriousness of this woman's condition, they would have acted.

Once the newbie excitement has been ground out of EMS personnel, and before the true wisdom of seasoned veterans begins to take hold, there is a "been there done that it's nothing" mentality that causes providers to make serious mistakes. It is something that we need to be aware of and guard against.

My personal experience is that seizures are one of the most "faked" symptoms I come across. Of all the seizure calls I have responded on, perhaps 1 in 5 have been true seizures and non have been life threatening. (self limiting, requiring supportive care and a trip to the hospital). I actually studied the phenomena of pseudo seizures in my efforts to be of some use to these patients, to try and understand why they do it so that I would not just dismiss these patients as "nuts".

In this particular case, the pregnancy was a great big red flag and should have warned these EMTs that this had the potential to go very bad very fast. I would hate to be them, and not just because of the public censure and loss of job, but I don't know that I could carry the burden of the deaths of a young mother and her child.

Regardless of the type of seizure, it's not our place to diagnose and judge. There's huge variability in them and as you said, not everything that shakes is a seizure. But at a minimum (faked, pseudo, or real) they should have attempted to keep her from hurting herself - especially seeing she was pregnant and being aware of that fact. Seizures can and do kill people - more than many realize. It's not always harmless, and what they did is inexcusable whatever their personal opinions, you're there, you're identified as a medical professional, sorry your break is OVER !

[aussiephil]

If these bozos were also fire guys, I bet they would have been to the patient's side within milliseconds if the patient would have been ablaze. No excuses. If they are in the medical business, it is the duty to at least 'want' to assist in whatever capacity possible. Total failure. Should be fired and potentially held accountable.

Thats because there is more glory in that than looking after someon who has been incontinent of bowel & bladder while suffering a seizure. Looks better on TV & fire are all about the glory.

[CBEMT]

Another reason why EMS & fire should be seperated?

Normally I'd agree, but given that Richard just pointed out an even worse offense committed by an NYC EMS crew before the FDNY ever got involved, I'd say its not really fair to tie this one to FDNY owning the municipal EMS in their city. Especially since FDNY*EMS crews aren't firefighters and FDNY firefighters aren't EMS.

[VentMedic]

I guess now the arguments would be if dispatchers have the same duty to act on the streets as other Paramedics, EMTs and FFs.

What patches were these two wearing? They at least must have had on some identifying uniform that said NYFD or EMS on it.

Edited December 21, 2009 by VentMedic

[DwayneEMTP]

Assuming they were just good Samaritans and perhaps were off duty with no gear, they did exactly what I would have done in that situation. I don't carry one piece of gear with me when I'm off duty. I also don't wear EMS or fire related clothing off duty, but that's another issue. What else could I do if someone was having an active seizure while I'm out slumming in my favorite fabric store except protect them from harming themselves and call 911? I can attempt to gather as much information as I can for the incoming EMS unit, but honestly my first priority is making sure the patient doesn't slam their head against the floor or other hard object during the event. Sounds to me that the good Samaritans, if they had no equipment accessible, did an appropriate job.

As for the other people involved. I know how stories can be falsified or enhanced. From the information we have so far, they appear to be guilty as sin for negligence, but it's not for me to judge them, especially with such limited information from a newspaper. I'll be more interested to see how things pan our for them in the end.

As for the lady involved, it was truly tragic. God Bless their family, and other child, during this time.

These were my thoughts almost exactly, though expressed more eloquently than I would have been able.

[devil's advocate]

If they had no gear because they were not on duty then their value there was limited to those things listed above. Though they had little to offer, and would possibly have exposed themselves to liability, I'm willing to bet that another, different story would have hit the media had they tried.

Medics prove impotent in the face of emergency! (notice it says medics and not firefighters, as we all know the media is incapable of seeing Fire as anything but superhuman.)

Witness, "The woman was dying! All they did was put a jacket under her head and call 911! I thought they were 911! She couldn't breath and they just stood there asking questions! It was ridiculous!"

[/devil's advocate]

It sounds as if they may have acted like assholes, though this situation, if they were off duty and without equipment, was a likely lose/lose. It will be interesting to see how it all fleshes out.

Dwayne

[Richard B the EMT]

I previously mentioned that I hoped I didn't know these personnel, and as it turns out, I don't. <BR>Someone on this string implied that the union would try and sweep it under the rug. Not the case, as the President of Local 2507 (EMTs Paramedics and Fire Inspectors of the FDNY), DC 37, American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees was quoted in the original NY Post article... <BR>

EMS-union head Pat Bahnken said the allegations against the EMTs are being taken seriously. "Such an isolated incident in no way reflects the professionalism our members exhibit every day. But, if a full investigation shows the allegations to be true, we expect these people to be punished to the fullest extent," he said.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Richard B the EMT

[MontvilleFire39]

Thats because there is more glory in that than looking after someon who has been incontinent of bowel & bladder while suffering a seizure. Looks better on TV & fire are all about the glory.

AussiePhil,

Your incredible hatred for the fire service and fire based EMS clouds your judgement and makes you look ignorant. Fire based EMS can be debated adnausem but bottom line is being "fire based" (even though theese two are NOT firefighters) does not automatically make your actions inappropriate. The comment regarding the union sweeping it under the rug was a pathetic attempt at a shot towards the IAFF; funny that FDNY EMS as well as communications staff are in their own union seperate from the IAFF.

If you hate the fire service so much that is your perrogative, but as professionals let's try to judge individual events based upon their own unique circumstances not our own individual prejudice toward a particular service delivery method. Frankly, it makes you look like you have a week argument.

[chbare]

Frankly, it makes you look like you have a week argument.

Or, the argument of the week. Sorry, could not help myself.

So, were these guys actually on shift, break, or off shift?

Take care,

chbare.

[Chief1C]

It's all very interesting

[fireflymedic]

I'm a bit confused but to my understanding they were on break - but since when did EMS get scheduled breaks? I don't know, but evidently they were wearing something identifying them as EMS and they state that "bystanders" wearing FDNY apparell came up to help, so who knows? I know things run differently there, so I won't even attempt to speak on what I don't know to that aspect.