EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die

[Chief1C]

If they're on a union, chances are, they have a meal break.

[tskstorm]

Richard will have more accurate information than I do, but I have a few things to say,

FDNY dispatchers rotate what I believe is 80 minutes on he dispatch board 40 minutes off due to the "highly stressful" nature that is dispatching 3500 plus cals a day. We (field providers) also have whats known as a 10-100 or personal break we get 20 minutes to eat, however our 20 min is not duty free, but a time where dispatchers will make reasonable accommodations if 2 units are available and one is on a 10-100 and the other does not have an obscene eta, they will assign the second unit, however we can still be assigned a job. We also have a facility break also 20 minutes long where we may use the bathroom, if we come up for a job dispatch will ask if we are able to take the assignment or if someone is still using the restroom. If someone is in the restroom we are allowed to refuse the assignment as long as we were given our facility by the dispatcher.

I do not know what the communications personnel uniform is, so I don't know what was displayed or not. A few interesting points/food for thought. How many times do you go to a store to get lunch or pick something up and someone jokingly states that they're sick. This however is no excuse and not an attempt to defend them but we do get these things no? As a field provider, if I was on a 10-100 getting food and someone told me someone was having a seizure in the back 2 things come to my mind immediately 1 This guy needs to switch to Decaf and stop playing with me this early in the morning (I'm not a morning person) and secondly I think of how unsafe it is to walk into a back room in any establishment without someone knowing where I am, and why I am there. I would not be walking into a backroom without notifying a dispatcher and having a radio at minimum. Trust no one and no thing protect yourself.

Things need to get handled differently in the future and in situations like this, however I can see why they didn't rush to the back to see whats going on. It needs to be noted they didn't step over a patient and just ignore them, they never saw a patient, should their actions have been different ? Absolutely, as a field provider I would ask for PD to my location or even a supervisor just because I'm a skeptic. To add to my skepticism, I would be thinking to myself if something was seriously wrong with someone in the back why is the Manager running out here tell me and not on the phone with 9-1-1... I would be very cautious about it.

Had they made the decision to go to the back and help and this woman died, there would have also been bad press as stated. Had they gone to the back and the woman went into arrest would they be expected to give mouth to mouth? A student and a friend both have worked at Au bon Pair, and have stated it was not usual to have a cpr kit present in these establishments even though they were supposed to. Where does duty to act and personal safety meet? Do we and should we expect dispatchers who don't on a regular basis work with patients to have gloves on them ? Further as dispatchers we can't expect them to have the same intuition or knowledge as long time field providers.

As far as treatment of seizures in NYC prevent patient from harming themselves is part of the protocol.

I just got called for an assignment, to be continued.

[P_Instructor]

......... but I have a few things to say,

FDNY dispatchers rotate what I believe is 80 minutes on he dispatch board 40 minutes off due to the "highly stressful" nature that is dispatching 3500 plus cals a day.

I do not know what the communications personnel uniform is, so I don't know what was displayed or not.

As far as treatment of seizures in NYC prevent patient from harming themselves is part of the protocol.

TK, I believe the original version, these were field EMT's and not dispatchers waiting for the food.

[scubanurse]

TK, I believe the original version, these were field EMT's and not dispatchers waiting for the food.

That is what I thought. The articles I have read refer to them as off-duty medics. I was just unsure if that was the press lumping all levels into one or not but I haven't seen any reference to EMD's in the news about this incident, with the exception that the store was located below dispatch. If they are indeed paramedic then absolutely shame on them. Get on a cell phone and call yourself if you're off duty and do not have a radio. I have done this several times, get on the line with dispatch, identify your name and rank on the recorded line and state the problem and what you are going to do. Even with no equipment they can relay appropriate information to dispatch and more detail than an untrained civilian could provide (i.e. I need a medic unit, etc). I understand from a scene safety stand point but get on your damn phone and deal with the situation don't just run from it.

As far as the comments made about why the manager was running to the store to ask for help instead of calling 911... One article did state that the store was frequently occupied by uniformed officials. I understand completely his rational for checking in the store for EMS first then having someone calling 911 at the same time.

Bottom line is that there is absolutely no excuse for their behavior and they should face the legal system of this country.

[cynical_as_hell]

Everybody has their own points of views about what should or should not have happened. Were these two wrong for their behavior? Absolutely. However, what is it that everyone expects them to do in regards to the treatment of a seizure patient? The only thing EMS does in treating seizure patients is keep them from harming themselves, provide oxygen, and if called for and allowed, perhaps provide some drugs to help stop the seizure, if you can even get an IV. If these individuals had their unit outside and were able to access the aboved mentioned equipment then absolutely they should be held accountable to the fullest extent. But if they walked over to this coffee place or took their own vehicles, then what more do you expect of these "EMT'S" that somehow makes them more able to help this woman then what the public already knows to do? Again, i agree 100% that their attitude and behavior were inappropiate, but before you call them to the carpet and demand that their certs be pulled, ask yourself if there was anything they could have done with the situation they were in that would have changed the outcome of this woman and her child.

[paramedicmike]

This story identifies the two in question as dispatchers.

"[Jackson] called 911. She didn't have an ambulance. She didn't have equipment. She does not work in the field as an active EMT in an ambulance," he said. "She is a dispatcher. She works as an emergency medical dispatcher. [Green] is also a dispatcher. These are people that are not in the field, that have not had patient contact in years. And they did the best they could."

Not that I'm arguing in their favor, nor do I think it excuses their behaviour of leaving the shop, but it seems they might not have been field personnel.

There are three sides to every story.

-be safe

[scubanurse]

They could have been there and called 911? It also sounds like the seizure was secondary to another event... such as hypoxia/anoxia or some bleed in the abdomen... Even if they couldn't do anything but call 911 and support the patient on her left side, that's still doing something. I've been off duty in a diner when someone who worked there had a seizure, and I stopped what I was doing, put gloves on from the kitchen staff, and held her head from banging against the tile floor possible giving her a concussion. So off-duty with no equipment you can still do SOMETHING...that is besides walking away.

[EMS49393]

Honestly, we really do not know what their attitude was exactly. All we know is perception. Did it really happen the way it was portrayed in the newspaper? Of course it did, the paper is always accurate.

Understand, I'm not saying this behavior was appropriate, if this was what took place. I'm saying that our profession is greatly misunderstood and often the public perception of us is skewed considerably. "Those frickin medic's didn't do crap for that lady and she died." When the reality might be that they were, in fact, off-duty and without equipment, or dispatchers and again without equipment.

Did the original "EMS" personnel tell them to call 911 and walk out of the shop? Maybe, but we don't know. We only know what we have read in the newspaper. I think it's unfair to judge anyone's actions without all the facts.

What we can learn from this incident and from everyone that has posted is that perception is everything. What a person says, how they say it, their body language, can all be perceived in a way the person had not intended. That may or may not be the case here. I wonder how many people are going to be considering how the public sees them the next time they're on a call, a break, trying to get a meal, or use the bathroom.

[jdmedic]

Question: Were these two wrong for their behavior?

Answer: You don't know. I don't know.

I'm a little disappointed in many of the comments against these medics. How can you judge someone by reading what bystanders have stated to a news paper article.

There are three sides to every story: His side, her side, and the truth.

There are a million different things that could have happened, and until you hear the medics in questions side, the investigators side, and the bystanders side (not from a news paper article) only then will you have the truth.

This is a tragic story. I truly hope that the two medics are exonerated as I want to believe that all paramedics/EMTs are professionals, but if it turns out what they did in the article is true, then they will get what they deserve.

[P_Instructor]

Again, i agree 100% that their attitude and behavior were inappropiate, but before you call them to the carpet and demand that their certs be pulled, ask yourself if there was anything they could have done with the situation they were in that would have changed the outcome of this woman and her child.

You've got to be kidding....look at the threads.....minimum open the airway, keep her from harming herself any further, positioned appropriately, and do what you have been trained for, even if have no equipment available. They went through training, they are better suited to assist this patient than the lay person. Be the first responder, stave the bagel until after assistance.

Would, could, maybe, who knows......they need to have some PRIDE in the profession.

Edited December 22, 2009 by P_Instructor