Off Duty Safety

[VentMedic]

While my brother, who is living in North Dakota, has not given me any update on it, I was told they have a similar law there.

Many states have adopted a "duty to act" law for its citizens and it can pertain to anything including a crime being committed. The state at least wants you to call 911 and are very careful with including the word "reasonable" in the statute. I believe this all came about with a national headline when a woman was murdered while many people witnessed or heard it. No one acted to even call for help.

[HERBIE1]

Many states have adopted a "duty to act" law for its citizens and it can pertain to anything including a crime being committed. The state at least wants you to call 911 and are very careful with including the word "reasonable" in the statute. I believe this all came about with a national headline when a woman was murdered while many people witnessed or heard it. No one acted to even call for help.

In the context of EMS, "Duty to act" is only one part of a legal nexus that determines whether a responder can be held liable for negligence/malpractice. I have never heard it applied to situations where the responder is off duty.

[VentMedic]

In the context of EMS, "Duty to act" is only one part of a legal nexus that determines whether a responder can be held liable for negligence/malpractice. I have never heard it applied to situations where the responder is off duty.

These laws do not pertain to "EMS". They pertain to every citizen in some states. If you are the immediate witness to a violent crime or accident, you have some "reasonable" obligation to at least call for help or make sure someone has. It is not meant for you as a layperson, citizen or off duty EMS provider to put your life in danger which is why the word "reasonable" is used in the statutes.

[medichopeful]

Many states have adopted a "duty to act" law for its citizens and it can pertain to anything including a crime being committed. The state at least wants you to call 911 and are very careful with including the word "reasonable" in the statute. I believe this all came about with a national headline when a woman was murdered while many people witnessed or heard it. No one acted to even call for help.

Is that the Kitty Genovese case you are talking about Vent?

[HERBIE1]

These laws do not pertain to "EMS". They pertain to every citizen in some states. If you are the immediate witness to a violent crime or accident, you have some "reasonable" obligation to at least call for help or make sure someone has. It is not meant for you as a layperson, citizen or off duty EMS provider to put your life in danger which is why the word "reasonable" is used in the statutes.

No. This IS an EMS issue, and "Reasonable" has nothing to do with it.

The case here is the FF was off duty, and in many areas because he is a trained responder, this means he is also not covered by the Good Samaritan Law either. Thus, he has no "duty to act" if he is not on the clock or working as a volunteer in the capacity of his job. Moral or ethical reasons whether to render aid or not are another story.

Laws on this are vague, they vary from state to state, and they are also not federal. Only a couple states have language that compel an off duty responder to render aid, although as you note, NONE require a person to endanger themselves to do so.

Again, in the context of EMS, duty to act is one of several determining factors as to whether or not a provider's actions are protected against a charge of negligence.

If we are talking about reporting a crime, that's a different story. I have no idea for certain of the details, but I do know most LEO's are held to a different standard than EMS responders. I believe that in many places, a police officer is essentially always on duty, thus their "duty to act" is probably different than ours.

[VentMedic]

No. This IS an EMS issue, and "Reasonable" has nothing to do with it.

But the comments made by myself and a couple other about reporting an accident are not necessarily just about EMS. You are still a resident of that state regardless of whether you are in EMS or not and the term "reasonable" can still be applied.

The case here is the FF was off duty, and in many areas because he is a trained responder, this means he is also not covered by the Good Samaritan Law either. Thus, he has no "duty to act" if he is not on the clock or working as a volunteer in the capacity of his job. Moral or ethical reasons whether to render aid or not are another story.

Laws on this are vague, they vary from state to state, and they are also not federal. Only a couple states have language that compel an off duty responder to render aid, although as you note, NONE require a person to endanger themselves to do so.

Again, in the context of EMS, duty to act is one of several determining factors as to whether or not a provider's actions are protected against a charge of negligence.

If you had read my statement for posting this thread, you would see I have ABSOLUTELY no argument about who should stop and when or why. The reason I posted it is even if you think you should, you probably shouldn't if it puts you, other people on the road and your family in danger. I started this thread for a reason and that was to show people to think before they just react or because they think they are obligated to put their lives in danger.

If we are talking about reporting a crime, that's a different story. I have no idea for certain of the details, but I do know most LEO's are held to a different standard than EMS responders. I believe that in many places, a police officer is essentially always on duty, thus their "duty to act" is probably different than ours.

Again, if you had read my posts, I clearly stated it can pertain to both accidents and crime and I am talking about just regular citizens and not EMS or PD.

If you want to follow a case that will challenge the laws, surf up the rape of a young girl in Richmond, California that just happened a couple months ago. Not only was there a crime being committed in front of many witnesses, she also was in need of medical attention from the severe beating she took.

Even if you are off duty, you can still call 911 on your cell phone as a citizen if that is reasonably possible. You do not have to ignore an accident or someone being raped or whatever just because you are off duty.

Is that the Kitty Genovese case you are talking about Vent?

That case is in almost every human psycology book.

It is also now being compared with the Richmond case.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/05/crimesider/entry5535036.shtml

[HERBIE1]

But the comments made by myself and a couple other about reporting an accident are not necessarily just about EMS. You are still a resident of that state regardless of whether you are in EMS or not and the term "reasonable" can still be applied.

If you had read my statement for posting this thread, you would see I have ABSOLUTELY no argument about who should stop and when or why. The reason I posted it is even if you think you should, you probably shouldn't if it puts you, other people on the road and your family in danger. I started this thread for a reason and that was to show people to think before they just react or because they think they are obligated to put their lives in danger.

Again, if you had read my posts, I clearly stated it can pertain to both accidents and crime and I am talking about just regular citizens and not EMS or PD.

If you want to follow a case that will challenge the laws, surf up the rape of a young girl in Richmond, California that just happened a couple months ago. Not only was there a crime being committed in front of many witnesses, she also was in need of medical attention from the severe beating she took.

Even if you are off duty, you can still call 911 on your cell phone as a citizen if that is reasonably possible. You do not have to ignore an accident or someone being raped or whatever just because you are off duty.

I read your posts, and you claimed that these laws do not pertain to EMS. I pointed out where you were incorrect. In every legal opinion and brief I have seen, "reasonable" is not about whether someone should place themselves in danger. Language specifically states that a rescuer- civilian or not- is not expected to put themselves in harms way. It's about what prudent or "reasonable" actions should be taken for a victim- care, treatment, or calling for help, etc.

[Richard B the EMT]

Is that the Kitty Genovese case you are talking about Vent?

In the mid 1960s, possibly 1965, Kitty Genovese was attacked in the street, in front of her apartment building in the Queens County, New York community of Forest Hills, and stabbed to death.

Although her screams for help were heard, and several people, possibly 20 of them (if memory serves me well) looked out their windows and witnessed the event, nobody called 9-1-1. Police interviews of the building residents whose windows overlooked the scene of the attack resulted in a confusing lack of caring by the neighbors, who either felt that it was not their responsibility to call 9-1-1, or felt that if they heard and saw the event, someone else had probably already called 9-1-1.

I feel that song writer and performer Phil Ochs might have used the incident as the origin of his song "A Small Circle of Friends".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulTmmTIlM_o

Edited January 6, 2010 by Richard B the EMT

[VentMedic]

In the mid 1960s, possibly 1965, Kitty Genovese was attacked in the street, in front of her apartment building in the Queens County, New York community of Forest Hills, and stabbed to death.

Although her screams for help were heard, and several people, possibly 20 of them (if memory serves me well) looked out their windows and witnessed the event, nobody called 9-1-1. Police interviews of the building residents whose windows overlooked the scene of the attack resulted in a confusing lack of caring by the neighbors, who either felt that it was not their responsibility to call 9-1-1, or felt that if they heard and saw the event, someone else had probably already called 9-1-1.

I feel that song writer and performer Phil Ochs might have used the incident as the origin of his song "A Small Circle of Friends".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulTmmTIlM_o

That was definitely a bad situation. However, I think the rape and beating in Richmond has that one beat. They know who many of the witnesses are and some have been interviewed on various news or talk shows. They have no comprehension of how bad the crime was even though they watched it for 2 hours with the girl beaten unconscious while being raped.