Non-english EMT test in USA?

[JPINFV]

You are only speaking from experience from the two ambulance services you have worked for. Do you also realize many dispatchers are bilingual that can relay a call for 911? The ambulances services will have bilingual dispatchers and so will 911. You really seem to think that everything is done in English everywhere and all the time.

...but this conversation isn't about bilingual providers. It's about providers who lack even a working understanding of English. How many dispatchers in Florida do not speak English?

Tourists and transient visitors to this country may not want citizenship. Do you also want to force Disney to only sell tickets to English speaking people only? And you can not see where I got my statement from?

I must have missed the national "Disney ticket seller certification exam." Also, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the employees at Disney that work with guests speak English in addition to any other language they know. ...and, yes. I would love to see my racist, classist, homophobic comments where I even came close imply that I only consider some skin colors, socioeconomic classes, political affiliations, or sexual orientations as being worthy of being American. In fact, if this is the route you want to take, I see no sense in continuing this conversation until proof is shown that that is how I view America. I'm all for open discussion and don't expect everyone to agree with me, however I'm not going to be libeled in the process.

[VentMedic]

...but this conversation isn't about bilingual providers. It's about providers who lack even a working understanding of English. How many dispatchers in Florida do not speak English?

The dispatchers aren't on the ambulance. What are you talking about?

I have given you examples of how a system can work when there are non English speaking people in an area. Do you not understand how a bilingual dispatcher is of importance when dispatching trucks for either the community or the providers? You continue to argue that there is absolutely no place in any situation for a person who does not speak English in the U.S. in an entry level medical job that requires no entrance into a college. Even though this has been done you refuse to see how anyone that does not speak English can serve any purpose at all to patient care. The guy is not a doctor. He is NOT applying for a MEDICAL LICENSE.

Oh the hell with it. JP you have your own close minded little world and refuse to see how entry level non English people can be of any value here in the U.S. to assist in patient care. So yes, my previous statement still stands or maybe you are tolerant only if they speak English.

Edited January 20, 2010 by VentMedic

[JPINFV]

The dispatchers aren't on the ambulance. What are you talking about?

I have given you examples of how a system can work when there are non English speaking people in an area. Do you not understand how a bilingual dispatcher is of importance when dispatching trucks for either the community or the providers?

I never said bilingual wasn't important. However this thread isn't about bilingual providers. To be bilingual, you have to speak 2 languages and, per the original poster, the people he is directly concerned about at his company is providers who do not speak English. While English isn't a criteria to be bilingual by definition, for the intent of this thread the assumption being made is that one of the two languages is English.

You continue to argue that there is absolutely no place in any situation for a person who does not speak English in the U.S. in an entry level medical job that requires no entrance into a college. Even though this has been done you refuse to see how anyone that does not speak English can serve any purpose at all to patient care. The guy is not a doctor. After all, we know there can't be any foreign speakin' doctors trying to do patient care even as guests in this country. It wouldn't be right to have someone who can't speak English doing diagnostics or surgery on an English speakin' patient. That would be just ridiculous and unheard of in the United States.

Do you not see where there's a potential for problems when someone doesn't speak the same language as the rest of the patient care team? Do you feel that your ability to provide patient care properly as an RT if you were working in, say, a Russian hospital where everything is in Russian and the majority of the people (patients and care providers included) do not speak English?

PS. Still waiting for the evidence that I'm racist, homophobic bigot.

Edit: Actually, screw it. There's no sense in trying to have an adult conversation with someone who has to resort to ad hominem attacks.

Edited January 20, 2010 by JPINFV

[VentMedic]

Do you not see where there's a potential for problems when someone doesn't speak the same language as the rest of the patient care team? Do you feel that your ability to provide patient care properly as an RT if you were working in, say, a Russian hospital where everything is in Russian and the majority of the people (patients and care providers included) do not speak English?

LOL! I have been to hospitals in other countries on various missions where English is not spoken. I have also been to Chinese Hospital in SF. We have also hired "English Only" RTs and we have hired "Spanish Only" RTs before a degree was required and it really isn't as big of an issue as you make it out to be. That is unless the English Only RTs had an attitude such as yours and couldn't accept their Spanish speaking peers. There can be a place for each. I have also worked in the VA system where the Puerto Rican RNs spoke almost no English. Yet, the patients survived and just like another EMT, there was another RN around that could speak to the patient and somehow things got communicated. It may not be the most ideal situation but still not impossible.

And again and again and again I will repeat that now in the U.S. if you go to college there is an English proficiency exam. What part of English, again, do you not understand? At this time the EMT is a tech cert similar to the CNA. It requires no college.

But in the situation the OP mentioned, one spoke English and one didn't but both saw the same patient. Do you not think two EMTs can't figure out what to do between them?

Have you absolutely never been anywhere where another language was spoken with a patient?

The assumption that one of the EMTs is English speaking is because one of them started this thread in ENGLISH.

Edited January 20, 2010 by VentMedic

[JPINFV]

So... in other words, you have no evidence that I'm a racist, classist, homophobic bigot then? I mean, just checking because if I continue to disagree with you while you keep changing the subject (bilingual vs not bilingual), I want to make sure that you can back up the mud slinging that you seem hellbent on engaging in like it's grade school or something. So, where is my homophobic remarks that shows that I view real only heterosexuals as 'real Americans?' Same question with middle class. Same question with republicans. Same question with skin color.

Oh, and missions and employment is two completely different issues.

Edited January 20, 2010 by JPINFV

[VentMedic]

So... in other words, you have no evidence that I'm a racist, classist, homophobic bigot then? I mean, just checking because if I continue to disagree with you while you keep changing the subject (bilingual vs not bilingual), I want to make sure that you can back up the mud slinging that you seem hellbent on engaging in like it's grade school or something. So, where is my homophobic remarks that shows that I view real only heterosexuals as 'real Americans?' Same question with middle class. Same question with republicans. Same question with skin color.

Oh, and missions and employment is two completely different issues.

Do I need to repeat all of my posts again?

How many times have I used "non English speaking"?

Again and again, this is for the EMT cert and not even 911. If they enter a college they will take an English proficiency test. How much clearer can I make that for you?

If someone knows enough English to pass an EMT cert given in English when several English speaking people can not pass it, leave them alone. If their employer accepts them and is sponsoring their employment, leave them alone. What right to you have to tell someone they are not allowed to work in the U.S. when they have met the same requirements as someone else and their employer knows what language they speak?

I do have experience in this and do know about non English speaking people first hand in several occupations. You have refused to even acknowledge that someone who doesn't speak English could be a competent care giver at any level. Not speaking English does not make them an idiot or incompetent. So yes, I think you have presented yourself as I previously stated.

Edited January 20, 2010 by VentMedic

[Richard B the EMT]

At my employ in the FDNY, we all speak English. I do note that I hear a polyglot of regional and international accents in the mix, but I understand them, and they, me.

My partner is from Haiti, and I know he speaks English, Patois/Cajun, Spanish, and regular French.

Just in New York City, to converse with almost everyone, you'd need to speak English, Patois/Cajun, Spanish, French, German, Russian, Croat, Polish, Yiddish, Hebrew, several dialects of Chinese, Urdu, Hindi, Farsi, Latin, Portuguese...How many countries in the United Nations? Almost that many languages spoken in the city. I almost forgot, ASL (American Sign Language), and the many languages of the "Native American" and Canadian "First Nation" peoples.

I just cannot seem to learn any non-English languages. Just my luck. I envy those who can speak another language.

Having said that, it is my understanding that, between the War for Independence, and the War of 1812, both between the US and England (read as the U.K.), Congress voted as to what was to be the "National language", English, German, or French. They voted English.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Richard B the EMT

[JPINFV]

If someone knows enough English to pass an EMT cert given in English when several English speaking people can not pass it, leave them alone. If their employer accepts them and is sponsoring their employment, leave them alone. What right to you have to tell someone they are not allowed to work in the U.S. when they have met the same requirements as someone else and their employer knows what language they speak?

I'm sorry... I thought this entire thread was about giving the EMT-B exam in a language other than English.

I have a question to everyone in pennsylvania. I heard a rumor at work that non enlgish speaking emt b students are allowed to take the exam in their native language. I have come across several emt b's that only know a handful of words in english. They will ask questions such as what is a blood pressure cuff? what is a pulse? which leads me to think that the rumor may be true. Does anyone know any truth to this horrific rumor? Thank you

Oh, wait. It is. Gasp. Who's talking about pestering people who has a functional grasp of English to the point that they can communicate and pass the EMT-B exam? I'm not as all of my posts were about a binary "able to use English" and "not able to use English" differentiation. This differentiation is completely separate than 'speaks languages other than English' and 'doesn't speak language other than English.' Hmm.

Not speaking English does not make them an idiot or incompetent. So yes, I think you have presented yourself as I previously stated.

Yes... because the ability to speak any specific language has to do with skin color or sexual orientation. So, which skin color does the 'dark skin peoples' speak? What language does 'the gays' speak again? Remember, you where the one who brought sexual orientation and skin color into this. You might not know this, but there really are other languages that are spoken in countries that are predominantly white and my opinion that people should be able to have a functional use of the English language when working in a direct patient role in the USA applies to those people as well. If I was as racist as you want to make me out to be for disagreeing with you, then I should be making an exception for Russians and French who don't speak English. Unfortunately for your character assassination attempt, I'm not. I guess I'm racist against white people then.

As far as speaking or not speaking a specific language does not make someone an idiot. Incompetent for a specific job? Yes, and I hold myself to that standard. Since I don't speak Spanish, I am incompetent (as in failing to have competence. As in not able to preform the job properly. I'm incompetent in a lot of things. Flying an airplane is one of them. Strangely, I'm also ignorant when it comes to flying an airplane as a pilot) when it comes to providing direct patient care as a job (to contrast this with medical missions) in countries that don't speak English because I can't properly communicate with other health care providers, unless I want to hire an interpreter to follow me around. It would be imprudent, for example, for me to move to Russia and open up a private practice unless I learn to speak Russian.

[EMT City Administrator]

Lets stick to the debate and not resort to personal attacks...

[DwayneEMTP]

Again, someone who speaks a foreign language is not less intelligent, disabled or retarded.

As someone who relishes your posts, I'm truly confused by your inability, or unwillingness to address the replies given to you in this thread as they stand as opposed to attempting to give them a political/moral twist to the negative. I've just not seen this approach by you before.

I've not claimed that they are less intelligent, and in fact attempted to make the point that just the oposite is likely true. Disabled, yes, in their inability to communicate in the majority of their chosen country in a profession where communication is a fundamental skill. Also, and perhaps you're just skimming posts and not reading them entirely, I mentioned their retarded communication ability. The term was not presented as a medical diagnosis for all of those without competent English skills.

I also believe the language the OP is referring to is Russian.

Fair enough.

We are also talking about the 110 hour EMT cert, less training than the CNA in many places...not Paramedic and not RN. If you don't want this to be an issue, put the EMT into the colleges with required college classes so that the requirements of the U.S. education system can be in effect. It is also possible if we became familar with the "EMT" standards from other countries, U.S. EMS might advance so just maybe their influence could be a good one.

It would seem that what you're saying here is that if a program is not housed within an accredited college system that there should then be no standards for it? You could be right...Intuitively that doesn't feel right, but I'll have to give it some thought.

If 2 EMTs are not required on the truck, this is probably not for 911 calls.

I see that, but again am unable to grasp its relevance. IFTs sometimes transport very sick pts so the communication requirements stand.

Do you not think that some populations wouldn't be better served for routine transports by someone who spoke their own language? Are you going to teach an 80 y/o Russian or Spanish dialysis patient who has only been in this country a couple of months how to speak English or else on a 15 minute transport?

Of course not. But I'm also not going to put them with a provider, and again here we're speaking of the majority of the country, that can't get them the care that they need, should they need it. Is this a problem in China Town if the dominant population, the transfer service and the hospitals all speak a Chinese language? Of course not. But that situation does not describe the majority of the country.

Would you apply at any of our hospitals where Spanish is the dominant language just to exercise how superior your rights? Would you apply at Chinese Hospital in SF just to show you are the more intelligent American and those elderly Chinese people had better learn English no matter how sick they are once you're there?

I don't completely understand this statement, but if it's asking if I'd do those things to show my superiority, then I'm not sure how I've earned it. In this thread, as in the vast majority of those I've posted before I believe you'll have difficulty finding anywhere where I've implied that I'm superior to anyone. I would in fact apply at an SF Chinese hospital for the amazing medical/cultural educational opportunity it would almost certainly provide, though I wouldn't expect to be hired based on my bilingual language deficit.

It also doesn't look good if EMS either BLS or ALS can not communicate with their patients. Other countries encourage their citizens to be bilingual. We have many businesses that cater to people who speak a different language in this country. Why should health care be any different. It is also now part of the patient's rights to have their care communicated in their own language during a hospital stay in the U.S.

In the U.S., which is where we now reside, bilingual education is not the norm in most places. Kudos to the businesses that cater to the non English speaking populations. I had no idea that the non English speaking populations had a legal right to medical care in their own language, though as we actively pursue and welcome those from other countries I would hope that the medical services would consider this a moral obligation at least. Unfortunately though I do believe that bilingual skills have incredible value in these populations, other than where described, I believe adding care providers with one language that only supports a finite need is much less so.

After the Haiti disaster there may be more Haitians allowed to enter this country for employment. However, if they do not speak English, is it safe to assume you would never allow them to be gainfully employed as a CNA or EMT on a transfer truck that also largely caters to their communities in South Florida even if that is what they had done before?

I'd rarely agree to any statement that uses the terms always or never. And I believe that I'd tried to make it clear in my post that certifications to fulfill certain needs and specific populations should be exempt. Do I believe that a non English speaking Haitian should be able to force the powers that be to allow him to test for EMT in whatever his/her dominant language is in Minn? (Assuming there is not a huge Haitian population in Minn) I don't. Do I believe that a Chinese speaking EMT should be denied the ability to test for EMT in SF in Chinese if his/her primary function will be to service the Chinese population in a system supported by a medical community that speaks primarily that language? I don't. Though it's likely my ignorance is monumental in this instance, this makes sense to me.

I can see that this is an issue very near and dear to your heart, and as always I love your passion for all things medical/patient based. But you seem hell bent on making this about 'us v them' with 'us' being the superior English speaking population and 'them' being the lowly non English speaking population. I've not see anyone here putting forth that attitude though you seem to feel the need to attempt to force all arguments into that pigeon hole.

For me this is as simple as not using pliers to loosen a tight bolt. Pliers are not an inferior tool, they are simply not the best tool for the majority of these applications, but for those applications where they are useful, they're superior to nearly all others.

Medical practice at all levels has communication as it's foundation, from communicating with patients, other care providers, to documentation. If you're unable to communicate well when interacting with the majority of the people you come in contact with it in no way makes you an inferior human being, but does in fact, despite your possibly superior medical ability, make you an inferior provider.

As always, I'm grateful for your thoughts.

Dwayne