massive aneurism

[*Lifeguard*]

The Coroner may conclude that early intervention would not help. I am pretty sure Lone Star suffered from the same incident, and survived. He was back on car and has limited deficits. Clearly, early invervention is key. In this case, the employer should have had established safe work procedures in place for these workers. They are working alone with no system in place to ensure access to a First Aid Attendant. They are not orientated to the facility to ensure they understand how to access First Aid, in the case of an emergency. Failing to do so, may have delayed treatment for this worker.

Although I am a PCP student, I have Construction Safety training. I am aware of the associated safety violations. Ignoring them only exposes workers to the same ignored hazards. Sometimes it is better to be proactive as a Paramedic and address the ignored safety hazards, as opposed to responding to a call of a seriously injured worker.

The purpose of reporting sudden and unexpected deaths are to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death. This was a large Government operated facility. There was serious obstruction associated with the incident. The person who conducted the tainted 2006 investigation was a former Police Officer. I believe that he had serious Duties to report this sudden, unexpected death to the Coroner.

You obviously must have missed the point here. With conditions such as this, there is nothing we can do prehospital. They need a neurosurgeon ASAP- period- if they have any chance of surviving and even then it's dicey. If that aneurysm is leaking or gawd forbid bursts, there is nothing we can do. Depending on where the problem is, the bleeding and pressure may not kill them immediately, but the prognosis is less than grim.

[*Lifeguard*]

I am a PCP student. I also have a backgound in Construction Safety and I am a certified Construction Safety Officer / Trades Safety Coordinator. The Coroner here is not a Doctor. I am trying to establish that established safe work procedures, training, orientations and early medical intervention is key. The workers at this facility did not have access to First Aid. The employer and Prime Contractor did not have established safe work procedures in place to ensure these workers were not working alone, in isolation, with no system in place to ensure communication with First Aid Services. They did not receive adequate orientations to the site, to ensure they understood the hazards associated with their workplace or how to access or where First Aid was located.

Sometimes it is important as a Paramedic to be proactive and ensure workers and the general public are not exposed to the same, ignored hazards, which will harm them. This is a Government operated facility. These safety violations are 26 years old. Clearly, the long term nature of the violations establishes a breakdown in the system. I want to ensure that a conflict of interest does not affect the investigation. The purpose of reporting these incidents are to ensure that they get investigated thoroughly, in the hopes that similar deaths can be prevented in the future.

You obviously must have missed the point here. With conditions such as this, there is nothing we can do prehospital. They need a neurosurgeon ASAP- period- if they have any chance of surviving and even then it's dicey. If that aneurysm is leaking or gawd forbid bursts, there is nothing we can do. Depending on where the problem is, the bleeding and pressure may not kill them immediately, but the prognosis is less than grim.

[*Lifeguard*]

I am a PCP student. I also have a backgound in Construction Safety and I am a certified Construction Safety Officer / Trades Safety Coordinator. The Coroner here is not a Doctor. I am trying to establish that established safe work procedures, training, orientations and early medical intervention is key. The workers at this facility did not have access to First Aid. The employer and Prime Contractor did not have established safe work procedures in place to ensure these workers were not working alone, in isolation, with no system in place to ensure communication with First Aid Services. They did not receive adequate orientations to the site, to ensure they understood the hazards associated with their workplace or how to access or where First Aid was located.

Sometimes it is important as a Paramedic to be proactive and ensure workers and the general public are not exposed to the same, ignored hazards, which will harm them. This is a Government operated facility. These safety violations are 26 years old. Clearly, the long term nature of the violations establishes a breakdown in the system. I want to ensure that a conflict of interest does not affect the investigation. The purpose of reporting these incidents are to ensure that they get investigated thoroughly, in the hopes that similar deaths can be prevented in the future.

You obviously must have missed the point here. With conditions such as this, there is nothing we can do prehospital. They need a neurosurgeon ASAP- period- if they have any chance of surviving and even then it's dicey. If that aneurysm is leaking or gawd forbid bursts, there is nothing we can do. Depending on where the problem is, the bleeding and pressure may not kill them immediately, but the prognosis is less than grim.

[*Lifeguard*]

The Coroner may conclude that early intervention would not help. I am pretty sure Lone Star suffered from the same incident, and survived. He was back on car and has limited deficits. Clearly, established safe work procedures and early invervention is key. In this case, the employer should have had established safe work procedures in place for these workers. They are working alone with no system in place to ensure access to a First Aid Attendant. They are not orientated to the facility to ensure they understand how to access First Aid, in the case of an emergency. Failing to do so, may have delayed treatment for this worker.

Although I am a PCP student, I have Construction Safety training. I am aware of the associated safety violations. Ignoring them only exposes workers to the same ignored hazards. Sometimes it is better to be proactive as a Paramedic and address the ignored safety hazards, as opposed to responding to a call of a seriously injured worker.

The purpose of reporting sudden and unexpected deaths are to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death. This was a large Government operated facility. There was serious obstruction associated with the incident. The person who conducted the tainted 2006 investigation was a former Police Officer. I believe that he had serious Duties to report this sudden, unexpected death to the Coroner.

[island emt]

Obviously it's not sinking into your narrow minded approach for some form of an answer. SO LET ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU AGAIN!

There are no,- zero,- nada, Advanced life support procedures that will change the outcome of a sudden aneurism that lets go. At best supportive measures such as applying oxygen might help ,but probably not. Most people that suffer from brain aneurisms die before they get to the hospital, some before they hit the floor. When the blood vessel blows out there is little chance of stopping the bleed before the brain is displaced and herniation occurs, which squeezes the brain stem and death occurs. Even if the person were in a stroke center laying on the operating table with a neurosurgeon standing over them , it is still a low survivability event.

investigate all you like , but look at the facts . People die every day from brain aneurisms.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Original poster - check your pms.

But Island EMT is right - there is nothing prehospital that can be done for this patient except put the ambulance in drive, drive fast and let the hospital know that this is possibly a brain bleed.

Even with your report, what will happen in the ER is the patient will be put on a bed, then taken to CT after a short delay and then maybe operated on or if the bleed is close to the surface like a subdural or epidural bleed do a burr hole and evacuate the blood.

IF it's an artery deep in the brain like a Berry anyeurism, there is no way to stop the bleeding (if I remember right) and the best that can be hoped is for the bleed to tamponade itself off.

Lone star is one in a million odds and he beat them. the other 999,999 are dead.

[Lone Star]

Before I go into 'my story', I want to make this very clear:

This isn't for 'admiration', it's not for 'drama factor' it is, as Paul Harvey would say "...the rest of the story".

On Feb 22, 1996 I was returning home from a grueling 2 week stretch 'on cars' in Detroit. I had just finished up a 2 week pay period with 80 regular time hours and 111 overtime hours.

February in Michigan is 'snow time'. The roads were clear and dry. I was cruising along at 70 mph, when my vision started to 'grey out' bilaterally, and had one hell of a case of vertigo. As this was being processed by my slow brain, I realized that the last thing I saw clearly ahead of me was brake lights. I decided to go for the median (divided highway). That's when I found out that the left side of the body wasn't working.

Since I didn't have a cell phone, I used the CB in my truck to call for help after sitting there for about a half hour; hoping that it would pass.

Transported by ALS to the ER about 10 miles away. On arrival, the doc sent me to Radiology where I had a CT scan. After a consultation with the staff neurologist, it was determined that the aneurysm had been hiding in my skull for about 10 years.

Yes, I AM one of the very few 'lucky ones', and I 'realize' this every day. There are far too many that weren't as lucky as I was.

Even with immediate detection, diagnosis and intervention; there is rarely anything that can be done to save the lives of those who weren't as lucky as I was.

I spent 16 days in the hospital, and 14 of those days were spent in ICU. I underwent 18½ hours of surgery, went into cardiac arrest twice and 51 weeks of some very grueling self imposed physical therapy. I had to learn to do everything all over again.

I've got a 'giant question mark' on the right side of My head (which is why you won't be seeing me wearing the popular 'shaved head look'). The incision was closed with 180+ sutures, and there are 4 burr holes in my skull, along with two stainless steel clips that make their presence known around the ghaus line of an MRI machine.

The ONLY reason I'm here to tell this story is because God decided I'm needed down here.

There were no real 'warning signs', there were only a very few majorly bad headaches, that were dismissed as 'migraines' and nothing more.

Yes, I could have died. Was it something I did to cause it? I don't know; hell, even the docs don't know. Suspicious circumstances? No, in brutally blunt terms, it was a medical issue and that's that. Should there have been a Coroner's inquest in the event of my death? No, these things happen....

[Just Plain Ruff]

Before I go into 'my story', I want to make this very clear:

This isn't for 'admiration', it's not for 'drama factor' it is, as Paul Harvey would say "...the rest of the story".

On Feb 22, 1996 I was returning home from a grueling 2 week stretch 'on cars' in Detroit. I had just finished up a 2 week pay period with 80 regular time hours and 111 overtime hours.

February in Michigan is 'snow time'. The roads were clear and dry. I was cruising along at 70 mph, when my vision started to 'grey out' bilaterally, and had one hell of a case of vertigo. As this was being processed by my slow brain, I realized that the last thing I saw clearly ahead of me was brake lights. I decided to go for the median (divided highway). That's when I found out that the left side of the body wasn't working.

Since I didn't have a cell phone, I used the CB in my truck to call for help after sitting there for about a half hour; hoping that it would pass.

Transported by ALS to the ER about 10 miles away. On arrival, the doc sent me to Radiology where I had a CT scan. After a consultation with the staff neurologist, it was determined that the aneurysm had been hiding in my skull for about 10 years.

Yes, I AM one of the very few 'lucky ones', and I 'realize' this every day. There are far too many that weren't as lucky as I was.

Even with immediate detection, diagnosis and intervention; there is rarely anything that can be done to save the lives of those who weren't as lucky as I was.

I spent 16 days in the hospital, and 14 of those days were spent in ICU. I underwent 18½ hours of surgery, went into cardiac arrest twice and 51 weeks of some very grueling self imposed physical therapy. I had to learn to do everything all over again.

I've got a 'giant question mark' on the right side of My head (which is why you won't be seeing me wearing the popular 'shaved head look'). The incision was closed with 180+ sutures, and there are 4 burr holes in my skull, along with two stainless steel clips that make their presence known around the ghaus line of an MRI machine.

The ONLY reason I'm here to tell this story is because God decided I'm needed down here.

There were no real 'warning signs', there were only a very few majorly bad headaches, that were dismissed as 'migraines' and nothing more.

Yes, I could have died. Was it something I did to cause it? I don't know; hell, even the docs don't know. Suspicious circumstances? No, in brutally blunt terms, it was a medical issue and that's that. Should there have been a Coroner's inquest in the event of my death? No, these things happen....

Lone, now I see a whole new side of why you are who you are.

[HERBIE1]

Before I go into 'my story', I want to make this very clear:

This isn't for 'admiration', it's not for 'drama factor' it is, as Paul Harvey would say "...the rest of the story".

On Feb 22, 1996 I was returning home from a grueling 2 week stretch 'on cars' in Detroit. I had just finished up a 2 week pay period with 80 regular time hours and 111 overtime hours.

February in Michigan is 'snow time'. The roads were clear and dry. I was cruising along at 70 mph, when my vision started to 'grey out' bilaterally, and had one hell of a case of vertigo. As this was being processed by my slow brain, I realized that the last thing I saw clearly ahead of me was brake lights. I decided to go for the median (divided highway). That's when I found out that the left side of the body wasn't working.

Since I didn't have a cell phone, I used the CB in my truck to call for help after sitting there for about a half hour; hoping that it would pass.

Transported by ALS to the ER about 10 miles away. On arrival, the doc sent me to Radiology where I had a CT scan. After a consultation with the staff neurologist, it was determined that the aneurysm had been hiding in my skull for about 10 years.

Yes, I AM one of the very few 'lucky ones', and I 'realize' this every day. There are far too many that weren't as lucky as I was.

Even with immediate detection, diagnosis and intervention; there is rarely anything that can be done to save the lives of those who weren't as lucky as I was.

I spent 16 days in the hospital, and 14 of those days were spent in ICU. I underwent 18½ hours of surgery, went into cardiac arrest twice and 51 weeks of some very grueling self imposed physical therapy. I had to learn to do everything all over again.

I've got a 'giant question mark' on the right side of My head (which is why you won't be seeing me wearing the popular 'shaved head look'). The incision was closed with 180+ sutures, and there are 4 burr holes in my skull, along with two stainless steel clips that make their presence known around the ghaus line of an MRI machine.

The ONLY reason I'm here to tell this story is because God decided I'm needed down here.

There were no real 'warning signs', there were only a very few majorly bad headaches, that were dismissed as 'migraines' and nothing more.

Yes, I could have died. Was it something I did to cause it? I don't know; hell, even the docs don't know. Suspicious circumstances? No, in brutally blunt terms, it was a medical issue and that's that. Should there have been a Coroner's inquest in the event of my death? No, these things happen....

Holy cripes, Lone Star. You are truly a lucky guy. I think you are right- someone up there thinks you have some unfinished business and more to offer this world.

Glad you're still around to tell the story.

Your story is eerily similar to an old friend of mine's. On his way home from work (a medic), apparently he didn't feel well- dizzy, extreme fatigue, and he called his wife, describing his symptoms. He said he was pulling over to take a quick nap because he was afraid of falling asleep behind the wheel. I guess he figured he was simply exhausted after a brutal shift. felt that way myself countless times, as we all have, I'm sure. After he didn't come home for a couple hours, the wife began calling him and got no answer. At some point, a passerby saw him parked on the side of a highway, slumped over the wheel, and called EMS. He was DOA- a brain aneurysm. Like you-apparently he had no real warning signs, no trauma, no underlying health problems. He was 35 years old, and a new dad.

I thought the OP's question was in regards to proper AlS care in these cases, but it seems they are more interested in assigning blame. As you and others have noted, sometimes there is not a damn thing we can do to change an outcome, and we simply need to accept that.

Sh-It happens.

[tniuqs]

LIFEGUARD:

I did not think that this effort would be taken in such a sinister way.

So you may understand, this website has been a sounding board for a few that would take the "memberships" suggestions and use it it some way ... some truly sinister unfortunately. This could explain to yourself that without very clear situation presented and explained with good backgrounder and detailed info any hypothetical question will be subject to scrutiny. Please remember too that the many on this website are from different counties (we even tolerate aussiephil to appease him) the legal issues vary a tremendous amount.

cheers