Firemonkey Madness in Las Vegas

[DwayneEMTP]

It's not about the money. 1.6 million is a drop in the bucket for North Las Vegas, so this is certainly about politics and future financial maneuvering.

It irritated me when he said something to the effect, "We just want to be able to get paid for what we already do..." C'mon, the reason fire started responding to all of the calls where they are seldom necessary is so that they could shore up their call numbers and get all of their fancy equipment...You're already seeing the benefit of "doing what you do" in your budget brother...

It's a crazy world. I've come to be interested in the argument but have very little hope that there will ever be enough intelligent public debate to prevent Fire from playing these types of games. They have the tradition, the budget, and the media machine to keep the voting public in the dark. They will still be bullshitting my grandkids' grandkids long after I'm gone.

God bless our brothers and sisters in the Fire services, but you chose wrong. You've chosen a career that is becoming in large part obsolete and can't survive without raping someone else. When you watch your unions take jobs from those that chose differently I hope that you can see that it's not because you deserve them, but because you picked the bigger bully. When you take their jobs, you haven't competed, you haven't proved that you are professionally superior, you've simply proved that you're willing to sneak in and snatch their wallet while your union is beating their head on the sidewalk.

The stories that come from the fire services seem too often to be the same stories coming from the welfare population, they seem so often to be stories of entitlement. "I got this job, and that wasn't easy, so now you have to pay me forever whether you need me or not!!" For some reason firemen seem to actually believe that a fireman unemployed is just so much more tragic then a 'normal' person being unemployed...

It's a crazy world....

Dwayne

[HERBIE1]

It's not about the money. 1.6 million is a drop in the bucket for North Las Vegas, so this is certainly about politics and future financial maneuvering.

It irritated me when he said something to the effect, "We just want to be able to get paid for what we already do..." C'mon, the reason fire started responding to all of the calls where they are seldom necessary is so that they could shore up their call numbers and get all of their fancy equipment...You're already seeing the benefit of "doing what you do" in your budget brother...

It's a crazy world. I've come to be interested in the argument but have very little hope that there will ever be enough intelligent public debate to prevent Fire from playing these types of games. They have the tradition, the budget, and the media machine to keep the voting public in the dark. They will still be bullshitting my grandkids' grandkids long after I'm gone.

God bless our brothers and sisters in the Fire services, but you chose wrong. You've chosen a career that is becoming in large part obsolete and can't survive without raping someone else. When you watch your unions take jobs from those that chose differently I hope that you can see that it's not because you deserve them, but because you picked the bigger bully. When you take their jobs, you haven't competed, you haven't proved that you are professionally superior, you've simply proved that you're willing to sneak in and snatch their wallet while your union is beating their head on the sidewalk.

The stories that come from the fire services seem too often to be the same stories coming from the welfare population, they seem so often to be stories of entitlement. "I got this job, and that wasn't easy, so now you have to pay me forever whether you need me or not!!" For some reason firemen seem to actually believe that a fireman unemployed is just so much more tragic then a 'normal' person being unemployed...

It's a crazy world....

Dwayne

Agreed with all, but it IS about the money. There is only so much money to go around- even in Vegas. If money was no object, all the city employees would be paid 150K, driving a Mercedes,and their company equipment would be state of the art and top of the line. The political reality is that every city agency is being asked to do more with less. When unions are involved it's a sticky issue. Lay offs, pay cuts, unpaid days off, and service cuts are a no-no thanks to collective bargaining agreements. Some areas have negotiated give backs from their unions but the stronger the union(and the more essential the service they provide), the more difficult that will be. The fire service KNOWS they cannot justify their staffing levels based on their call volume, and although insurance regulations require a certain minimum amount of fire protection, these regulations usually say nothing about things like minimum staffing levels. Thus, they expand into EMS, and more specifically transporting, so they can generate revenue to justify maintaining their status quo.

Again, this is about what's best for the fire service, NOT necessarily the citizens.

[Dustdevil]

When you watch your unions take jobs from those that chose differently I hope that you can see that it's not because you deserve them, but because you picked the bigger bully. When you take their jobs, you haven't competed, you haven't proved that you are professionally superior, you've simply proved that you're willing to sneak in and snatch their wallet while your union is beating their head on the sidewalk.

[Richard B the EMT]

I am somewhat amused, and bemused. Most of the time, I hear that a municipality wants to ELIMINATE EMS from the municipal payroll (either hospital based, or FD based), and privatize it.

( NYC wants to privatize the current municipal hospitals, too, now that EMS is not a part of them, and the part that was making the hospitals the most money)

[Kiwiology]

The IAFF strikes agian .... doesn't bother me, hell I'm not gonna step foot in North Las Vegas man its bad up there you get shot for your shoes

I'll stick to Reno, they have an arch, and non Fire based EMS; both of which I am easily a sucker for

[croaker260]

While I agree with 90% of what has been said about the fire service, I want to point out WHY they chose CAR WRECKS and critically ill....

Car Wrecks...Let me guess, NV is a mandatory insurance state...better chance of REIMBURSEMENT.

Critically Ill: This means the increased chance that these are the older and insured (under insured, but insured)population, where medicare is the most common payor. And since these will likely be "ALS II" bills, the pay out is more sure and increased dramatically over ALS I and BLS calls, even with "bundleing". In short ....$$$$$$$.

Its a numbers and volume game.

By taking these two significant portions for the EMS Fee revenue stream, you leave the patients for whom reimburesement is less certain, and the payout margin less...for the privates.

[46Young]

I never said that I endorse what the NLVFD is doing. What I did say is that when you're facing unemployment, self preservation kicks in. Especially with the lack of available jobs out there. Survival of the fittest. No different than a corporation trying to gain as much market share as possible, I suppose. In fact, I've said that I don't agree with FD takeovers of pre-existing EMS, except when the existing system has proven itself inept and/or inadequate. If your system is working well, there's no need to change it. Adding EMS/ALS first response to save jobs and increase productivity is one thing, but putting people on the unemployment line is a whole different matter. Again, I don't endorse a FD takeover in this case, as things are working well as it is, at no cost to the city.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't make a career in a private service, especially where 911 is concerned. As I said earlier, it's the choice of the local gov't as to who runs EMS. A private service vs an established fire organization, it's really no contest. If I were working FT for a private, I'd be sure to have a plan B. That was my thought process when I worked hospital based 911/IFT in NYC. The FDNY could take back their 911 spots, like FHMC's 46 Frank, when they were steering pts. The hospital itself could close, as did St. John's on QB, Mary Immaculate, St Joes, and probably St Vincent's in the city. That's why I went municipal third service EMS, and then fire based when I saw how much better they have it (and being slapped around by the service). If I were able to find an available third service with the same benefits, compensation, working conditions and retirement, I would have went there. It's all about the best retirement. If your company loses it's contract, you maybe have a little bit in a 401k if you can afford it. Some retirement.

Many of you want the fire service out of EMS. More of you still want fire positions cut back to reflect call volume. Being that I'm not quite two years in, that would result in me being laid off. If you all had your way there would be massive fire service layoffs. Loss of firemedic positions, and suppression positions due to call volume. Fire takes EMS jobs and it's an evil thing. But taking it in the other direction is perfectly fine.

Edited February 21, 2010 by 46Young

[Hillbilly Medic]

I notice this in every urban area I look at for openings. I lived in Miami for a year, and went back to electrical work while I was there because all services (except AMR) where fire based. Now, the question I have is this: I chose to become a Paramedic, and firefighters choose their trade. Why then must I have to do something I choose not too? I wouldn't ask a firefighter to become a Paramedic if that isn't what he/she wanted. Either way, you're gonna find that each person prefers one trade to the other. The end result is that they will excel in that which they love, and "slack off" in that which they don't.

If this really is in the best interest of the public, and not the money.....hell, let's combine police/fire/EMS and we can all do all three jobs.

[46Young]

It's not about the money. 1.6 million is a drop in the bucket for North Las Vegas, so this is certainly about politics and future financial maneuvering.

It irritated me when he said something to the effect, "We just want to be able to get paid for what we already do..." C'mon, the reason fire started responding to all of the calls where they are seldom necessary is so that they could shore up their call numbers and get all of their fancy equipment...You're already seeing the benefit of "doing what you do" in your budget brother...

It's a crazy world. I've come to be interested in the argument but have very little hope that there will ever be enough intelligent public debate to prevent Fire from playing these types of games. They have the tradition, the budget, and the media machine to keep the voting public in the dark. They will still be bullshitting my grandkids' grandkids long after I'm gone.

God bless our brothers and sisters in the Fire services, but you chose wrong. You've chosen a career that is becoming in large part obsolete and can't survive without raping someone else. When you watch your unions take jobs from those that chose differently I hope that you can see that it's not because you deserve them, but because you picked the bigger bully. When you take their jobs, you haven't competed, you haven't proved that you are professionally superior, you've simply proved that you're willing to sneak in and snatch their wallet while your union is beating their head on the sidewalk.

The stories that come from the fire services seem too often to be the same stories coming from the welfare population, they seem so often to be stories of entitlement. "I got this job, and that wasn't easy, so now you have to pay me forever whether you need me or not!!" For some reason firemen seem to actually believe that a fireman unemployed is just so much more tragic then a 'normal' person being unemployed...

It's a crazy world....

Dwayne

No, I chose right, at least from a career standpoint. I tried hospital based EMS. The pay was decent, and so were the working conditions. No pension though, only a 401k, little room for advancement, and the hospital could lose it's 911 contract, or even go belly up.

So, I briefly considered FDNY EMS, thought better of it, and chose municipal third service. We were limited to east coast states by my wife. Charleston County EMS hired me. They pay well, but the working conditions were undesireable for me, I had a $1000 deductible on my medical, and it was 28 and out. Lee County FL wasn't hiring, and most other east coast agencies pay crap, especially in the Carolinas. I define crap as under 40k to start (in the south, outside FL, and a top out of under 70k.

I had been testing for my current employer at the time, as I always have a plan B. 53k in the academy, 12k/yr in ALS incentives, and another 4k courtesy of a step increase give me a base of 68k. Next year I'll take the EMS tech promo exam, and add on another 6k to that. About 300/month in medical pre tax, no deductibles, Cigna OAP. 25/55 retirement at a 2.8% multiplier, and a three year drop. The best working conditions one could ever hope for, and the sky's the limit with promotional opportunities. I'm making as much as the hiring range for an Asst Director at my old service.

My point is, nothing I've found in the single role world can compare to what my employer offers. I know nothing of entitlement. I researched what they were offering, and found it to my liking.

So I decided to go with the winning team. I wasn't willing to spend an unknown amount of time, maybe 10-20 years or more as a single role provider with no guarantee of things ever improving. Call the fire service bullies, thugs or whatever, but it's survival of the fittest. Like hostile corporate takeovers. I can do the same exact job I was doing in the third service, for a whole lot more than they were offering on many levels. I always had an interest in fire. I reasoned that if I didn't like suppression, I could follow an EMS career track, ride the ambulance exclusively, and then promote into EMS admin. Same job, with actual career advancement opportunities. Officers make more than some with masters degrees. At least they now require degrees for these positions. No one stole any jobs around my way, since the local depts have been fire based since they first went paid way back when. I didn't destroy anyone's livelihood in taking this job. I didn't know the fire service did that before reading these EMS forums. I thought that all fire/EMS depts started out that way.

The only adjacent dept that has screwed single role EMS is Alexandria Fire and EMS. They seek to crosstrain all single role personnel, and have them work suppression as well.

What the rest of the country does doesn't concern me. I chose a well run dept, where no one was forced out of a job. The current trend in the fire service is for medics to be afforded greater opportunity for career advancement. Old, set in their ways fire admin are to blame for the current attitude toward EMS, like those IAFC EMS statements. As medics climb the promotional ladder, things should change. A good number of admin personnel in my dept are/were ALS. I think this explains why my dept runs EMS well. Other depts need to follow suit for self preservation.

[DwayneEMTP]

I respect many of your posts and believe that you are too intelligent to make this arguement, though it doesn't surprise me totally because a fireman's ability to justify bullshit often seem endless. I think it comes from believing all the crap you see on TV and newspapers...

Many of you want the fire service out of EMS. More of you still want fire positions cut back to reflect call volume.

Of course we want them cut back to reflect call volume! I don't want my city to employ 3 times as many meter readers as necessary either, but that doesn't mean that I hate meter readers. And if they have too many meter readers and the public suddenly discovers this, I don't want them to take aware a fireman's job and give it to them so that they can look productive. One chose to be a meter reader and ended up in an untenable position, the other chose to be a fireman. Once should not suffer because the other chose poorly. But according to your logic, your job should then be taken because a meter reader is certainly a more important position than the average fireman...so fuck em. Right?

Being that I'm not quite two years in, that would result in me being laid off. If you all had your way there would be massive fire service layoffs.

Correct.

Loss of firemedic positions, and suppression positions due to call volume. Fire takes EMS jobs and it's an evil thing. But taking it in the other direction is perfectly fine.

And here again you're hoping we'll take this line of bullshit as fact, because you're used to the public doing so. If fire takes EMS jobs to shore up their own positions that is evil. Why? Because they are not required to compete fairly. And you really need to stop using corporate take over analogies as long as the fire service is playing with public money, money that they didn't have to prove that they deserved by creating a profit. If your profession has proved that it can't survive without diversity, that's awesome. But let's quite pretending that they are involved in "corporate America" when they are using my money to screw my neighbors.

You can justify it because in this case rape is good for you. Awesome. But at least have the balls to approach the problem honestly, quit with the bullshit analogies, call a spade a spade, as the saying goes.

I can't imagine how disappointing it must be to have worked so hard to to compete for a coveted position that allows you money, good retirement, work time leisure, unearned hero status, only to find out that you must now justify stealing from your neighbor to keep it...I hope I never know. I hope I always have more honor than that.

And if sharking jobs at any cost is ok, then can you explain the IAFFs attitude in the article below, and the gazillion other's like it?

http://www.dearbornf...per%20Woods.pdf

Dwayne

Edited for grammar correction. No contextual changes made.

Edited February 21, 2010 by DwayneEMTP