Firemonkey Madness in Las Vegas

[46Young]

In the link you provided, the entire 9 minute and 22 second video relates specifically to fire suppression, and the need for 4 people on the truck, not 3. All discussion of duties is fire suppression related. Not one single word was related to EMS operations. Not one single EMS vehicle or person was shown or interviewed.

Watching the video, I cringed – I know a bit about structure fire tactics, as my husband is deputy fire chief in my area, and my father in law was fire chief in his city for many years, and had over 35 years experience before retiring. On a fire scene, having one person on a roof, or one person on an attack, or one person doing an interior search, is just plain STUPID. That is completely unnecessary risk of life and limb. THAT is the argument that was used in the video – that having 4 members would provide better care to community, and better safety to crews. I am OK with that approach.

The point that you have chosen to completely ignore, is that fire departments, specifically the LVFD, are not staffing their services appropriately, and in order to staff them appropriately, are stealing from EMS.

Even from your video – the question that was never asked, nor answered, was WHY Fairfax County was only staffing with 3 members.. was the reason financial? I bet it was! So, the problem is then, justifying the increased crew, and increased cost, which is a huge POLITICAL issue. Politicians and administrators don't look at staffing as people – they are just looking at the bottom line. They don't look at calls as real people involved – just the repurcussions if things go wrong and how it makes them look bad.

The original point of this thread is that the Las Vegas FD is STEALING from EMS to justify its staffing levels and budget, rather than justify their staffing with a common sense approach and educating the public. Why are they doing this? My guess is because they can't justify their current budget and their current toys, and now that they are in a tough financial position, they are looking for a bandaid solution (pun intended). Fire should be made to stand on its own, and justify its expenditures, exactly as EMS does, not use EMS revenues to subsidize fire.

Again, refer to the restaurant analogy I used in my previous post.

I posted the link in response to the claim that FD staffing should be based on call volume, not the community's need. The IAFF has been fighting for safe staffing levels for some time. People like Aussiephil like to say things like "justify their existence". This link went off on a tangent in regards to the thread topic, but it is an answer to these repeated sentiments.

We originally had three on the engine, now we have four as minimal staffing. We had planed to upstaff the trucks to four with the next few academies, but hiring has slowed down considerably. We're currently hiring only firemedics, and they ride only the ambulance or engine, typically 50/50. We were running four academies a year to keep up with the population growth. We wanted to hire even more to have the necessary people to upstaff the trucks. When I worked in Charleston SC for third service EMS, Charleston City was running three on the engine, and I never saw a truck. The Awendaw FD had only one or two per piece, tops.

Anyway, I never said that it's right that the NLVFD is doing what they're doing, only that I wouldn't choose a career with the privates because it's survival of the fittest. I also said that I went fire based for the same reason. I've stated that my dept was fire and EMS from the point it went paid for the first time. No one lost their job for us to run EMS.

Psst- you aren't talking to civilians or some clueless politicians here-many of us DO work in this business. You sound like a PSA bought and paid for by the IAFF. As a matter of fact, I believe that video you linked has been used by the IAFF, but I digress. Listen, I know about the push for manning- nothing new. I also know that in many areas, unless there is a life safety issue, aggressive interior attacks are a thing of the past. Things like master streams and aerial pipes are used now more than ever before- surround and drown. You are absolutely correct about when you need a firefighter, you want 50 guys to show up in less than a minute, with state of the art equipment, have a positive water supply, no frozen hydrants, no lead out problems, all having 20 years experience, hundreds of fires under their belts, and all possessing every certification known to man- from Haz Mat to swift water rescue. Now back to real life...

The fire service is used to being the sacred cow- and for

good reason. Problem is, times have changed, fires ARE way down, and the fire service has adapted to that by absorbing EMS. Smart for them, not necessarily what's best for the public. The fire service- and IAFF's- number one priority has always been, and will always be fire suppression and rescue. For many areas, 3-4 man companies have always been the norm, and mutual aid agreements supplement their manpower. Ideal- no, but it's reality. In today's economy, an area's police service, EMS, and a dozen other services would suffer if fire received everything they asked for.

IAFF is suffering from the same thing that killed Detroit- union arrogance. When times are great, unions negotiate incredible pay and benefits packages. If anyone knows about some of the famous(and often times ridiculous) perks the UAW managed to get for it's members, you know what I mean. Even when a company is losing money, they are required to pay their members. That's fine and great for a member, but a union also needs to be realistic about it's demands and expectations. Unions like the UAW finally agreed to concessions, but it essentially was too little, too late. Big auto needed to be bailed out- their legacy obligations were killing them.

I know you cannot put a price tag on public safety, but the sad reality is that it's necessary. I believe in premium pay for risking your life, responding to incidents when everyone else is running away- that's what we do and we should be well compensated for it. Sadly, too many of us are not- especially those in EMS, and just because fire has a longer history, more members, and a stronger lobbying arm, it does not mean it has the right to walk over EMS- especially when it's not providing a better option.

Unions in the private sector and those in the municipal arena that are forbidden to strike are two different things. My local isn't really a true union as we're in a right to work state. We get results through political influence. One hand washes the other, and it works well.

IAFF has agian provided a smoke screen to deflect frm the real discussion.

Is havin combined EMS/Fire really in the best interes of the general public, or is it best for the fire department because it increases their rofile, increases their workload & gaurentee's their jobs.

I give them 10/10 for trying to preserve their members jobs, but to tell lies about it being in the best interest of public is takng it a bit too far.

46young has already told us, is either this thread or another, that 30% of their workload is fire surpression.

30%.

So where is the bulk of the work? EMS. But it is a good excuse to et the BRT out so everyone can see it, so people will think they are more important than they really are.

Now, what is better for he public, stand alone EMS, orglory seeking firemen justifying theor jobs?

No matter what you're shown, your mind is already made up. Anything anyone employed by the fire service must be lies. If you're told by a FF that the sun rises in the morning, you'll argue back that the moon will rise instead.

The video explains the position of an increased need for staffing and a timely response quite well.

[HERBIE1]

I posted the link in response to the claim that FD staffing should be based on call volume, not the community's need. The IAFF has been fighting for safe staffing levels for some time. People like Aussiephil like to say things like "justify their existence". This link went off on a tangent in regards to the thread topic, but it is an answer to these repeated sentiments.

We originally had three on the engine, now we have four as minimal staffing. We had planed to upstaff the trucks to four with the next few academies, but hiring has slowed down considerably. We're currently hiring only firemedics, and they ride only the ambulance or engine, typically 50/50. We were running four academies a year to keep up with the population growth. We wanted to hire even more to have the necessary people to upstaff the trucks. When I worked in Charleston SC for third service EMS, Charleston City was running three on the engine, and I never saw a truck. The Awendaw FD had only one or two per piece, tops.

Anyway, I never said that it's right that the NLVFD is doing what they're doing, only that I wouldn't choose a career with the privates because it's survival of the fittest. I also said that I went fire based for the same reason. I've stated that my dept was fire and EMS from the point it went paid for the first time. No one lost their job for us to run EMS.

Unions in the private sector and those in the municipal arena that are forbidden to strike are two different things. My local isn't really a true union as we're in a right to work state. We get results through political influence. One hand washes the other, and it works well.

No matter what you're shown, your mind is already made up. Anything anyone employed by the fire service must be lies. If you're told by a FF that the sun rises in the morning, you'll argue back that the moon will rise instead.

The video explains the position of an increased need for staffing and a timely response quite well.

46-Honestly I am unclear about the existence and differences of how unions operate in a right to work state. Are you a dues paying member to the IAFF- or some other union? Do you enjoy the same benefits as a member in a union state- ie PAC's, lobbyists, and PR? Do you operate under a collective bargaining agreement? Is your municipality(and the local) not bound by the provisions of that CBA?

[NickD]

Here in Los Angels, California there's the same problem manifested in a different way. The fire department, for a long time, has had EMS locked up as their bailiwick. Yes, we have a few privates with "fire contracts" that do fire's transporting both BLS and ALS. (The latter with a fire medic aboard.) But Los Angeles, like the rest of California, is in such deep financial trouble I see an opportunity. For instance, the headline in today's Los Angeles Times reads, "Council Orders Drastic Cuts – Firefighters, Police not Exempt from Call to Slash 3,000 more City Jobs."

And this isn't the first round. Fire is already cutting back by having fire medics cover larger areas and also offering early retirement to high ranking high paid fire officials. So myself and several other private EMTs I've recruited have embarked on a letter writing campaign that endeavors to persuade city officials that private EMS can take over some, if not all, the duties of Fire EMS at less cost to the city.

I briefly talked with the heads of two private EMS companies, and while they said great we're onboard with it, they refused to get actively or publicly involved out of fear of fire retribution and the possibility of putting their existing contracts in jeopardy. Sadly, I was impressed with neither of them. Which brings up the point of who is it that speaks for us? We certainly have plenty of bosses. There's the County EMS agency, there's medical control, there's the NREMT, and even JEMS, always telling us what we should be doing. But who speaks for us? Nobody that's who. So I'm convinced we have to do it ourselves.

I hear you, it'll never work. But it could work. Sure, we have a few flakes in our private company. But for everyone of them there are ten, bright, ambitious, and motivated young EMTs. And I watch as the get crushed down a little more each day until they're gone. Lost to another job or profession with a future. But the flakes, and the already retired like me, seem to stay. I mentioned above how private EMS in Los Angeles County works but the worst part isn't apparent on the face of it. Private EMTs are fire medic slaves. We are the candy stripper to their doctor, the Alfred to their Batman, and if you like Pawn Stars, the Chumley to their Old Man. It can be very demeaning being it's all stick and no carrot so the best of us bug out. But you guys know all that. We hear privates are a dead end, and a third agency is the way to go. And I agree with that, except it isn't going to happen anytime soon (at least here in LA) because there's absolutely no money available to implement it. So turning to privates might, all of a sudden and right now, look viable to certain city officials.

Except to the fire department, of course. And fighting the big red machine is the toughest battle of all. If we do get some city officials on board there will be a public perception battle to win. As it is right now if a fireman rescues a cat in a tree their PIO cranks up and sends press releases out to every newspaper within 200 miles. And we don't have anything to compete with that. But there's a crack in the facade. And I'll be damned if I'm not going to stick a crowbar into that crack and hold it open. Sure, we've mounted nothing more than a small grass roots effort, a drop in the bucket, but who knows? It may just plant the seed in one city official's mind and get something started. Maybe it'll mean when I finish paramedic school I won't have to leave my home, my friends, and my life to seek employment elsewhere. Maybe it'll mean "private" doesn't have to mean "dead end" in LA. And maybe it'll make fiscal sense for the state I love.

If any of you want to help and send a letter, I won't tell you what to say as I know you already know. Just don't begin, "Hey Asshole!" or use the phrase, "Fire Monkey!" LOL . . .

Please pick any of the below Los Angeles City Council member and lick a stamp, and thanks! I wrote to everyone of them this week trying to say the same thing in a different way and I'm bushed . . .

Ed Reyes

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 410

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Paul Krekorian

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 425

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Dennis P. Zine

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 450

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Tom LaBonge

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 480

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Paul Koretz

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 440

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Tony Cardenas

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 455

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Richard Alarcon

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 470

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Bernard Parks

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 460

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Jan Perry

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 420

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Herb J. Wesson, Jr.

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 430

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Bill Rosendahl

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 415

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Greig Smith

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 405

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Eric Garcetti

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 475

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Jose Huizar

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 465

Los Angeles, CA 90012

Janice Hahn

200 N. Spring Street, Rm 435

Los Angeles, CA 90012

[46Young]

46-Honestly I am unclear about the existence and differences of how unions operate in a right to work state. Are you a dues paying member to the IAFF- or some other union? Do you enjoy the same benefits as a member in a union state- ie PAC's, lobbyists, and PR? Do you operate under a collective bargaining agreement? Is your municipality(and the local) not bound by the provisions of that CBA?

The only differences are no collective bargaining, and no union security provision. Everything else is the same. No one's forced to join. We pay dues to the IAFF Local 2068.

http://www.fairfaxfirefighters.org/index.cfm?section=1

Many of the IAFF locals are in right to work states. I've repeatedly said that EMS needs some real organization. They could do what the IAFF does, instead of having it's professionals enveloped in fire unions in ever increasing numbers.

[JPINFV]

Many of the IAFF locals are in right to work states. I've repeatedly said that EMS needs some real organization. They could do what the IAFF does, instead of having it's professionals enveloped in fire unions in ever increasing numbers.

Any EMS agency that chooses IAFF to represent the employees after the Kansas City MAST betrayal deserves to lose their jobs to the fire department. It's completely stupid to rely on a fire fighter union to look after your needs when the same union is gunning to move as much EMS as possible into the fire departments to save fire fighter jobs. This is the proverbial fox looking after the hen house.

[tniuqs]

I personally like the staging of the photo...

Gloves on to check his equipment inside his station

The partially deployed LSB

The jacket casually hanging with his name showing

The suspenders...

Propaganda at it's finest

Bhwaa haa ha .... if one reads the comments after the news article it becomes very apparent that the picture of the FF is in Toronto (the kinda crest gives it away) and the article is about Winnipeg Fire service ... it just keeps getting better if one takes the time to read the informed commentators .

cheers

[46Young]

Any EMS agency that chooses IAFF to represent the employees after the Kansas City MAST betrayal deserves to lose their jobs to the fire department. It's completely stupid to rely on a fire fighter union to look after your needs when the same union is gunning to move as much EMS as possible into the fire departments to save fire fighter jobs. This is the proverbial fox looking after the hen house.

I didn't mean attaching to the IAFF. what I meant was that the fire service keeps gaining market share with EMS, and their dual role medics are with the IAFF and not a strictly EMS organization.

What happened in Kansas City? I'm ignorant to that story. I'm assuming that the IAFF didn't represent them or the converted them to fire based?

Edited February 22, 2010 by 46Young

[JPINFV]

What happened in Kansas City? I'm ignorant to that story. I'm assuming that the IAFF didn't represent them or the converted them to fire based?

IAFF represents MAST and Kansas City Fire. KCFD got the bright idea to take over MAST. Of course the IAFF approved the decision for one union branch to take over another union branch in a second. Hence fox and the hen house. It's like a pimp union also representing a bunch of whores.

[akflightmedic]

Some older member may remember my past stories...I have been through 2 county mergers (fire taking over EMS).

The most recent one was a true gem...fire and ems were separate county agencies, but shared facilities. Both sides were represented by the IAFF in regards to bargaining with the county.

Fire decided they wanted EMS which was an all ALS very progressive service for over 20+ years.

Paramedics were united and fought, showed up at every meeting and shut down the votes.

Fire called a meeting last minute and voted to throw Medics out of IAFF. Vote was successful, Medics no longer had representation.

Several years battle ensued as medics became another union group and now county was bargaining with two diff unions which was headache. Medics were winning, they were holding their own as IAFF never thought medics would be successful with the other union.

Fire then went another route since merger kept getting denied.

Three seats on county commission were up for re election. IAFF did heavy support for 3 special candidates, one who was a family member to a firefighter. All 3 candidates were successfully elected despite not having ever done politics before.

FIRST county commission meeting with new elects, guess what came up for discussion. Yep! Fire Merger...

Motion was voted on and passed. IAFF wins again!!

After mission accomplished, one county commissioner resigned as his job was done.

Several years later, almost all career medics have been forced out due to not being able to cross train. The ones who remain are harassed.

The service is now no longer all ALS...the service now has constant turnover, as fire medics are in high demand and they now use said service as a stepping stone until the "real fire jobs" come along.

The collective knowledge and talent pool is extremely diminished...the place is no longer a nationally recognized leader as they once were before.

Yeh, the IAFF always has everyone's best interests in mind....NOT!

[DwayneEMTP]

46Young, you are accusing others of having their minds made up, and yet you still continue to spout whatever bullshit makes your point.

If you want to be taken seriously in this debate you need to stop using misleading language such as, "survival of the fittest", you're not the fittest if you can take jobs without having to fairly compete.

"Corporate takeover", "Increasing market share", those are private industry terms. They are used for people that have to risk their jobs to compete. Those that get to lie and cheat while spending government money have no right to them.

I'm not sure now, as I've mentioned this to you several times, if you're simply too ignorant to use appropriate language, or if even you are so convinced of the impotence of your argument that you purposely continue to represent it as something that it's not.

Take a chance, show that you can actually think your way through this as an individual instead of an ignorant piece of the fire machine. We have faith in you brother...

It does remind me of an old joke though, but I'll have to tweek it a bit to make it work...

"What's the difference between a fireman and a shopping cart?"

"Every now and then a shopping cart seems to have a mind of it's own..."

Use your own significant brain...stop simply flushing the same ol' party line over us that we've heard, and labeled bullshit, over and over..

Dwayne