Firemonkey Madness in Las Vegas

[p3medic]

I've stated repeatedly that I don't agree with this practice taking over EMS only for funding and positions, unless the existing EMS service is legitimately run poorly (a shady private agency, not a third service in the same district), and the FD takeover is run appropriately.

Are you a member of the IAFF? If so, you pay dues to an organization that wants to do just that, save fire jobs at any cost, including taking over EMS functions wherever they can. If you don't agree, stand up to your Union and say NO or STFU!

[HERBIE1]

Again, I opine that Fire Departments that wanted to do EMS duties seem to do better than Fire Departments that are told from outside their agency, that they HAVE to take on EMS duties. No apparent "sibling rivalry", either in a paid or volunteer department, in that regard.

That is my observation, from talking with members of such departments, and articles I've read in JEMS and EMS Magazine.

In an organizational sense, any new attitude or initiative comes from the top, but at each level of management, the supervisors also need to buy into the new idea or it will fail. The problem with the fire service is there is a long history of established procedures and making changes in such a group is very difficult. It takes strong leadership to promote a radical change, but the reasons why a department may choose to chase after EMS are generally not altruistic, they are self serving. Thus, the fire service may benefit, but not necessarily the public or EMS.

[CBEMT]

Again, I opine that Fire Departments that wanted to do EMS duties seem to do better than Fire Departments that are told from outside their agency, that they HAVE to take on EMS duties.

Lots of fire departments WANT to do EMS because they WANT the run numbers, they WANT the ability to say that they're revenue-generating, and they WANT to justify half-million to million-dollar vehicles whose primary purpose is not, in fact, EMS.

Doesn't for one second mean they're going to do it RIGHT. There's a difference between desire and motivation.

Edited February 25, 2010 by CBEMT

[joesph]

And were might I ask is the statistical data to prove that EMS services are diminished by fire department participation?

[Kiwiology]

And were might I ask is the statistical data to prove that EMS services are diminished by fire department participation?

Eh? the Service is not diminished, the physical number of Paramedics might in fact go up because the Fire Service sends everybody down to the local warm-body producing patch factory and lets them rot on an engine.

However as with most things we must think QUALITY and not QUANTITY

[aussiephil]

I've stated repeatedly that I don't agree with this practice taking over EMS only for funding and positions, unless the existing EMS service is legitimately run poorly (a shady private agency, not a third service in the same district), and the FD takeover is run appropriately.

This still does not justify a combined service.

If a private service is poorly run, or a shady agency, as you describe, surely the responsibility falls back to those who awarded the contracts. When any contract is issued, there are Key Performance Indicators that MUST be met or a please explain issued. If they are continually not being met, then there is justification to terminate the contract.

If you contract someone to do some work for you, & they do not met the expectations that are set for them, they you find someone else. This is a business fundamental.

If your Fire Service repeatedly failed to surpress fires, would there not be some sort of inquiry as to why, to identify problems, then resolution either through remedial action, counselling, demotion, dicipline or if the problem remains ultimatley termination.

This is a pointless argument & serves no purpose here

[MS Medic]

I did not shuffle through 5 pages of posts so if this has been covered, my appologies. If a city FD covers EMS, then who handles the county? The one fire based EMS system in this state picks and chooses when they respond to rural calls out side the city limits. In order to block competition (atleast I guess that is the motive), the FD fights tooth and nail to keep out private and volly EMS in the county. (Volly fire is all there is in the county thanks to same said FD).

I had personel from that department in my paramedic class and noticed that the universal motive for fire personel to be medics was to "have one more cert" for promotion. In fact, that service requires the use of contract medics because the fire medics do the required 2 years on an ambulance to cover their obligation for a free ride through medic school then stay as far away from the ambulance as possible.

At least with a private service, you know that when you know that barring MCI/state of emergency type situations you will get an ambulance and the crew will usually have a motivation other than getting a promotion

I'm still interested in getting answers to these questions. These are serious logistical issues with fire based ems.

These agencies roll the dice every day hoping that they have enough units to not draw attention to lack of coverage.

And seeing how many metro FD's have contract out to private services for 911 overflow, are you going to claim you have the answer to that problem?

[aussiephil]

I'm still interested in getting answers to these questions. These are serious logistical issues with fire based ems.

And seeing how many metro FD's have contract out to private services for 911 overflow, are you going to claim you have the answer to that problem?

The reality is all services, regardless of stand alone or a combined service, every service does run close to the wire. Rostering & Operating levels generally are determined from historical data. These are then suplimented when a planned event takes place. All it takes however is a strange set of circumstances, & your service is pushing shit uphill.

Here, most tourist coaches carry a maximum of 44 passengers each. What happens when 2 of them collide head on. This happenned here, 21 years ago. Information is available here. This is in a rural area, low call volume, minimal crews, is this a normal event? Is this an event that can be sucessfully planned for?

More recently, September 11 2001 saw all New York emergency services completely overwhelmed. Can this be planned for?

The simple answer is no. To cater for these extraordinary events & have crewing levels for it daily is cost prohibitive. Again, this is exclusive of seperate or combined service.

Pandemicsof different types gastroenteritis, flu etc, will also cause major problems. Some of these are not the fault of EMS. When a pandemic hits, it not only effects EMS, but also hospital systems etc. This then causes back ups for EMS with no beds available.

This of course is not a situation exclusive to medical. Police are in the same position. Fire can be in the same position, considering the range of work they have taken from everyone else.

I hope this answers your question.

[Kiwiology]

This of course is not a situation exclusive to medical. Police are in the same position. Fire can be in the same position, considering the range of work they have taken from everyone else.

LOL; that brings up a legit question on my end. How do SES and ASNSW Rescue get along because aren't SES technically stealing work from the Rescue/SCAT teams? Any turf wars between the orange jumpsuits and ambos? (By looking at thier website it claims they provide vertical, RTA and technical rescue)

Now .... perhaps a look at Kiwi's Rules of Fire Based EMS 101 can prevent endless tail chasing

- The IAFF is out to steal medical runs and protect its members' jobs

- Many Fire Departments do not want medical runs, so up pops the local quicky warm body medic patch factory

- The IAFF/IAFC purport that response times matter and how they are able to best meet them, but because they do not really matter that is really null and void

- The IAFF/IAFC claim that Fire based ALS provides better outcomes, using some unreferenced studies from 1990 that are no longer relevant and out-of-context so again, null and void

- People (read: public and legislature) are stupid, and the IAFF/IAFC are increadibly powerful at lobbying and whipping up support for whatever they want .... and they usually get it!

Thus conculdes Fire Based EMS 101, thanks for watching and now, a message from our sponsor ....

[Richard B the EMT]

The September 11th Attack on the World Trade Center was (hopefully) a once in a lifetime occurrence.