Obama's Healthcare Reform

[Asclepius]

However, if your house burns down the fire department will come and put it out free of charge, the police don't send you a bill for helping you out if you need it, most local libraries are free, you don't have to pay to get US mail and so on and so on .... all of these things are regardless of income or how much you have "put into" the pot.

Newsflash...Fire Departments don't do their work for free. We pay for their services with our tax dollars. Despite paying for it with our tax dollars, most bill your home insurance and some bill you directly. Nothing is free...not police, not libraries, not the postal service...nothing. We pay for all of that. In fact, we pay for the services that other people do not pay for with our taxes. Those of us who pay taxes anyway. The government doesn't pay for your homeowners insurance. They don't pay for your auto insurance. Health insurance is not a right! What the heck makes you think (not you specifically, but anyone) that you have the right to health insurance or welfare or any entitlement. Nobody has a right to that stuff. It's that stuff that has got us to the point where so many people are without the means to care for themselves. What incentive do people have to go out and earn their own way? Why should they get off their butts and do anything for themselves when the government will do it all for them. A small percentage of people who receive government assistance actually really need it. We've bred whole generations of families who know nothing else but welfare and medicaid. They have no ambition to educate themselves, learn a trade or seek employment.

[brentoli]

I haven't read most of the posts by others, so I apologize if I echo anyone elses statements.

We aren't fixing the root of the problem. If you have a leaky pipe you can duct tape it, and it will stop for a while, until the water wears down the tape. But its a better, and in the long run easier, fix to fix the whole system isn't it?

My household income is considered probably right in the middle of the middle class, I won't see one damn benefit from this "reform." I will see more taxes, more problems with my insurance company, more problems at the doctors office.

Why is it that we PROMOTE a society, where if you are uneducated it is just fine for you to lay back, pop out 5 kids and live off of MY earnings? Anyone in EMS sees the abuse of Medicare every stinking day. People call 911 for am Ambulance (~$300 BLS bill), stay in an ER (~$500 in fees at least), and a couple tyenol (~$20 a pill in the ER?) because they DONT WANT TO SPEND THEIR $10 IN CASH TO GO BUY A BOTTLE OF ASPRIN AT WAL-GREENS! I promise you however they will have that free taxi they got on a voucher make a quick stop at a gas station for a pop and candy bar. All while they laugh about spending $900 for their "primary care ER" visit.

[Happiness]

OK time to stir the pot and eat popcorn to. I dont really know what to say about the bill and in reality I see flaws but I agree that everyone, everywhere deserves at the very least basic and emergency healthcare.

As I have sat back and watched this thread I would like to point out the various people that have mentioned how much the USA is in dept. I would like to ask why is the USA in dept and maybe there should be some emphises on the american people making the government get all of the billions paid out to the banks and the ones who got all of the million dollar bonuses and that money could be put towards healthcare.

There are always going to be good and bad ideas in any government I just shake my head at my own, but maybe something good could come out of this and maybe it will be striked in the next administration. Unless your willing to read the whole bill as is your not going to know the whole story.

[scott33]

Health insurance is not a right! What the heck makes you think (not you specifically, but anyone) that you have the right to health insurance or welfare or any entitlement. Nobody has a right to that stuff.

I can see a common misconception here. There is a big difference between those who say health care is a right, and those who perceive that as health insurance being a right. In most countries outside the US, there is a choice of either government run healthcare or private insurance companies, or a combination of both.

Here are a couple of example of private health insurers in the UK, if one so wishes to use them.

http://www.bupa.co.uk/individuals/health-life-cover/health-insurance

http://www.bmihealthcare.co.uk/about-bmi

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healthinsurance/private-medical-insurance/guide/

[Just Plain Ruff]

Where in the US constitution or any State constitution does it say Healthcare is a RIGHT? NO WHERE. As far as I'm concerned the only rights given you are those in the Bill of rights.

Is driving a right?

What else do we consider a right? If there are other things that are not in the constitution and Bill of rights that are considered rights, then damnit, these need a bill/law to make restitution and make the government give us that right.

What congress effectively did was to make healthcare a right and since it's a right the government has to pay for it somehow.

I'm so sick of all this rhetoric. We need to provide reform but not at the expense of our countries detriment.

In one year let's see how this affects us. We can all come back around this table and talk about either how screwed up this bill made the country or how hunky dory the bill worked.

I hope that this bill is the panacea that the libs/dems say it is but I am very very skeptical.

[scott33]

Since this healthcare reform has been pitched, there have been many in the US media making comparisons to "Socialist healthcare systems" Many of the analogies in the press have gone from the inaccurate to the offensive. My reply was in reference to the misconception of those systems from a US standpoint. Just as the US has its rights, so certain other countries have theirs.

Believe it or not, many of the comments from Canada, the UK, Australia, and NZ are in support of the US having a better system for their people.

Edited March 24, 2010 by scott33

[CBEMT]

I now have to admit that I did not look into the specifics of the bill before posting my comment.

You should have quit there.

I realise that this is going to cost people money, in some cases a lot of money. But surely those who are very poor will get some assistance?

They sure will. From the unicorns.

Who do you think the 8 million still-uninsured people will be? (Btw, it'll be WAY more than 8 million.)

I still stand by my comment that healthcare is a right. It's funny, but it would only be an American that would think otherwise.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Could you BE any more European? (See how that feels, wise guy?)

[brentoli]

I understand requiring auto insurance for driving. You are putting other people at risk, and should carry liability for your actions.

From what I understand though doesn't this bill require health insurance for living? With sanctions if you don't carry it? This stuff never helps the people that need it, it only helps the free loaders. So not the "American-Way" of 1776.

[emtannie]

Living in Canada, and having access to health care without having to worry if I can afford the ambulance ride or the services I get at the hospital, I am a little confused about a few things regarding the events in the USA. I will admit, I am not well informed about it, and do not understand the complete ramifications of this, but some of the quotes really caught my eye.

“The vote last night was the worst day in American History. It's the beginning of the end of America as we know it, unless we all do something to stop it!”

- really? Worse than the shooting of JFK? Worse than the Vietnam war? Worse than the war of 1812 (which the US lost)? Why is this worse?

“I am actually scared, scared for my family, and for my children.”

- why? What is so scary about this?

“No offense, but if our system, society, and health care is so lousy, why are people fighting to COME vs going elsewhere? Why do people come here from all over the world to get state of the art medical care?

You can have "Decent" health care- I'd prefer to have the "best"- with all it's flaws. Instead of fixing the problems, we are blowing up the entire system. FAIL.”

- no offense?…. People come from all over the world to the USA to PAY for health care. The priveleged, the rich and famous – that is a HUGE difference than average Joe coming to the USA for health care – that doesn’t happen. What about the average working class person coming to Canada for health care, or to Mexico? I live and work close to the US border – and if you think it isn’t happening, you are mistaken – I see a lot of US citizens that come to our hospitals and pay the out of country non-insured fees, because it is still cheaper, and faster, than getting health care in their own country.

- I think it is offensive to the working class that they can’t afford health care in their own “richest country in the world.”

“Shame on us for knowing that at the rate our current President and his cronies are going through the government coffers and giving it away…”

- unfortunately, your own population spoke with their votes to get this person into power, for good or for bad..

“I see a lot of Babylonian empire in our country”

- Ruff, I like this; I also think that we can look at our current countries and make comparisons to Babel.

“Forcing American's to foot the bill for your problems doesn't hardly seem fair to me.”

- again, is healthcare a right, or a privelege?

- and, you are already paying for the parasites who prey on your health care, social services, and other government programs – how does this new bill make that worse?

“Welsh, I think some were a little taken back with the "shame on you" remarks. Many Americans want health care reform and coverage and are not against these concepts. However, what just passed could be dangerous for the United States. We have no money, we are trillions in debt, we are already funding two battlefields and sending out billions in aide to other countries while we continue to take money from other countries such as China. Potentially adding trillions more to what we owe when our economy sucks could potentially bite us on the ass. We are doing this to extend coverage to 30 million or so people at the cost of potentially causing our country to go under.

We should focus on conservative changes such as decreasing cost and tort reform instead of drastically changing everything with a concept we cannot afford. The US is in a bad way right now.”

- THANK YOU, chbare, for explaining some of the reasoning – after 4 pages, I found very little up until your post to explain WHY you don’t like this bill passing.

-

“What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Could you BE any more European? (See how that feels, wise guy?)”

- WTF? I saw the original comment, and didn’t find it offensive, but I find this one offensive… this appears that you think opinions coming from Europe MUST be wrong; when it was pointed out by the pervious poster who you replied to, that in America, health care is not considered a right, something that has been agreed to by many US posters.. so why the anger?

I do not understand the part about fining someone who doesn’t have insurance – the theory behind that evades me; but is that the only reason people are against this?

The US has tried to make health care private business for decades… is that any better? I see working people, with insurance, who still can’t pay their medical costs, who still have to mortgage their homes to cover surgeries for their children, and who lose everything to try to pay for life-saving medical treatments – is that better than what is being put into place now?

Private health care as the US has is a “privelege, not a right” setup – is that really what citizens want? Do people only want health care for those who can afford it?

I do see the concern with the debt this is going to incur; as a taxpayer, that is a valid concern; how is that any worse than bailing out the big businesses who showed to have incredibly poor fiscal management during the recession of the past few years? (I own my own small business – I didn’t get any bailout money)

So, if I understand right, these are the reasons people don’t like this bill:

- it costs a lot, and the USA is already in debt bigger than the average person can fathom

- it will not insure those who truly need insurance

- it won’t solve the problem of those who are parasites to the system

- it was voted in without public support

Am I understanding this right?

[brentoli]

So, if I understand right, these are the reasons people don’t like this bill:

- it costs a lot, and the USA is already in debt bigger than the average person can fathom

- it will not insure those who truly need insurance

- it won’t solve the problem of those who are parasites to the system

- it was voted in without public support

Am I understanding this right?

Thats pretty close.

Why should I be required to hold health insurance? Why should I be penalized if I choose not to?

From the Explainer on Slate.

There's a fine for not having insurance. How does the government know whether you have insurance or not?

Through the tax system. The legislation doesn't explicitly say how the individual mandate for health insurance will be enforced, but taxpayers will probably be required to prove that they own insurance when filing their taxes each year. (If you get insurance through your employer, they'll help take care of it. If you're self-employed, your insurer will probably send you a document to submit with your other tax forms.) If a taxpayer doesn't have insurance, the IRS will notify him of his nonenrollment and show him how to sign up through their state's insurance exchange. If he still refuses to enroll, the IRS will levy a fine that shows up on his tax forms. The fee starts small in 2014—$95 or 1 percent of income—but edges up incrementally until 2016, when uninsured individuals will have to pay $695 a year, with a family maximum of $2,085 or 2.5 percent of household income.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

We have laws on the books already that emergency care can not be denied to someone in need. Why, do I need to finance a liver transplant for someone who has drank all of their life and their longest full time job was line cook at the truck stop for 4 months? I have been working my ASS off for 2 years now trying to get in a position to buy a house. You know what? I make too much for ANY assistance from the federal government, but I make too little for a decent enough credit report to get approved with out a substansial down payment. How is that fair?

America is giving the big middle finger to the working class.

Are you rich? Well here are enough tax deductions/credits/write offs/shelters that the taxes will only be a pin prick to your bank account.

Are you poor? Well here are all the hand outs you need. Keep having kids, and apply for one job a month and youll be A-OK.

Do you make $40-80K a year? Well by all means step right up and finance those who aren't succesful enought to get a job, get a basic education (even though the gov't would pay for that as well) and become productive members of this nation.

Thats why Americans are pissed off.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

Life is a given for the most part by laws on the books now.

My liberty is slowly being eroded by these supposed "reforms."

Pursuit of Happiness? Maybe in Texas.

Edited March 24, 2010 by brentoli