Cheating? Seriously?!

[Lisa O]

If you cheat in class or on a test, you are only cheating your patient whos life depends on you. It's unfair and uncalled for to those who have called upon you at a (possible) dark moment in their life.

[Dustdevil]

Totally NOT what I thought this thread was going to be about.

[JakeEMTP]

Totally NOT what I thought this thread was going to be about.

To be honest, me either.

[aussiephil]

Totally NOT what I thought this thread was going to be about.

Thats only cause you are ols & cynical dusty!!!!! :)

[emtannie]

I am blaming Albert Einstein for this… One of his famous quotes “never commit to your memory what you can find in a book.”

I think too many students take this quote to heart, and do not try to learn, forgetting that in the field, taking the time to look things up is not always an option.

I agree with the integrity issue as well. Albert had another quote on that, which is far more fitting for this situation “Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.”

I have seen students use the on-line question information for a number of classes, either for good or bad. I have seen students use these sites to develop quizzes to test each other; when used for this purpose, these sites show value. I have also seen these sites used just as tcripp and JakeEMTP described – as a way to try to shortcut learning. Like Jake, I see this in a number of refresher courses, including CPR and ITLS. Jake, I think you handled those students very well!

I tend to give a lecture at the start of my classes:

“In this class, you are required to have the mark of 80% to pass. Some of you are already giving me that ‘OMG 80% is awfully high’ look. I want you to think about it for a minute. If you were sick or injured, or a family member of yours was sick or injured, do you want the EMT or medic who just got 50%? Or even just got 80%? Or do you want the person who excelled? My bet is that you want the person who excelled.” (I usually see lots of nods here) “So, my challenge to you is, be the student who excels, not the one who just meets the bare minimum. When you are studying, ask yourself if you know enough to give the kind of care you would want.”

I usually have to remind some of them of that short lecture during the course of the program, but it does have an effect on some of the students, and those students I am so proud of when they succeed.

I don’t know how to break this cycle of entitlement, as beating it out of people isn’t an option….

[aussiephil]

I am blaming Albert Einstein for this… One of his famous quotes “never commit to your memory what you can find in a book.”

Can we add the internet to this quote as well?

I think too many students take this quote to heart, and do not try to learn, forgetting that in the field, taking the time to look things up is not always an option.

I agree with the integrity issue as well. Albert had another quote on that, which is far more fitting for this situation “Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.”

Touche.

I have seen students use the on-line question information for a number of classes, either for good or bad. I have seen students use these sites to develop quizzes to test each other; when used for this purpose, these sites show value. I have also seen these sites used just as tcripp and JakeEMTP described – as a way to try to shortcut learning. Like Jake, I see this in a number of refresher courses, including CPR and ITLS. Jake, I think you handled those students very well!

They not only look it up in class Annie, but also in the chat, one of my bug bears here i have to admit.

I tend to give a lecture at the start of my classes:

“In this class, you are required to have the mark of 80% to pass. Some of you are already giving me that ‘OMG 80% is awfully high’ look. I want you to think about it for a minute. If you were sick or injured, or a family member of yours was sick or injured, do you want the EMT or medic who just got 50%? Or even just got 80%? Or do you want the person who excelled? My bet is that you want the person who excelled.” (I usually see lots of nods here) “So, my challenge to you is, be the student who excels, not the one who just meets the bare minimum. When you are studying, ask yourself if you know enough to give the kind of care you would want.”

80% is fair, i would be asking before the little darlings start 'What is your expectation of you examination result?' If they answer less than 80% they are an automatic fail.

I usually have to remind some of them of that short lecture during the course of the program, but it does have an effect on some of the students, and those students I am so proud of when they succeed.

I don’t know how to break this cycle of entitlement, as beating it out of people isn’t an option….

Beatings are always an option. I do think that it is a generational thing. We have gen Y - Y me? Y not, Y do i have to work up from tyhe bottom? I think that as the years progress we will see that this demented mentality wil subside & those in the Gen Y mentality will realise that their expectations of entitlement are deluded & need to be curtailed when all starts to fail (a gross generalisation I know, I do admit there are those in Gen Y who are the opposit if what is described. Please humour me Dont change the thread, It wasnt intended to be a bash Gen Y thing, just stating observations).

Maybe we could make you Annie the Dominatrix & you can administer the beatings!!!!!!

[emtannie]

Maybe we could make you Annie the Dominatrix & you can administer the beatings!!!!!!

Phil, you have been a very bad boy.... you have been in my closet again.... very very bad boy.....

[aussiephil]

Phil, you have been a very bad boy.... you have been in my closet again.... very very bad boy.....

[DwayneEMTP]

I dont think I can improve on the opinions expressed here on cheating on tests. What I would coment on is that to many Emergencey responders take ICS as a joke.

NIMS is a management technique very similar to systems used to manage big corporations. ICS got its start with FIRESCOPE after California got tired of killing off people with bad management practices. It is know adopted in whole in 19 states and in part in many more. To many managers see this as a invasion of there sovereign domain and will only give it lip service or blatantly ignore it. Did I mention it was mandated by presidential executive order. Any agencies not complying is not eligible for federal funding. Having a common command structure so that we can all work from the same sheet of music can unquestionably be of great help for the next "Katrina" or "911".

Is the rating on this post a joke or something that I'm just not getting? I don't see the issue with this post, or with the last few that I've read from joesph, yet each one has been marked with a negative. I can't remember if his posts have been terrible or if he's done something here to make enemies, but if so, how is he supposed to improve if someone is just going to follow him around kicking him in the balls regardless of his post quality?

Whoever put the negative on this post, can you raise your hand and explain why you chose to do so? I think this post is spot on..I'm curious what I'm missing.

And I think he's right. I think most people do take this as a joke, as I always have, and as the creators of the test do. It's always the same test, with the same questions, in the same order with no attempt whatsoever to create any type intelligent, interactive way of learning it, nor a secure way to be tested for it. Why do you all truly expect others to take the test more seriously than they've been taught to? The creators don't take it seriously or they'd make some effort to create a relevant test, your employers don't take it seriously or they'd do more than say, "Get this done and turn in your card."

And I'm really the only one here that's ever thought about cheating?? Really?? No one here has ever told a lie?? Which of course is just another type of cheating. I can't think of a time when I've wanted to cheat to get something I didn't need, but there were a million times going through school that I was confused, exhausted, or just simply wanted to see a good grade above my name that I'd thought about it. I didn't, but not because I'm somehow morally superior to todays younger generation, but because I grew up in a time when cheating was very, very difficult and the consequences for doing so were so amazingly humiliating that I can't imagine putting myself in the position to face them today.

We like to believe that we are morally superior to those that might cheat, but c'mon folks, these kids are growing up in a world that many of us that are getting a little older help to create. They are operating on the morals and ethics that they've been taught by us and those that came before. They are applying those morals and ethics in a world that allows it. They are what they were created to be, and they remain that way because we, as a society, allow it.

We are all frustrated by people that cheat, and the society that allows them to continue to do so, but to say that we just can't imagine any reason to cheat, any reason to lie, well, that's just bullshit. This problem needs to be addressed, but to address it it needs to be indentified and understood from a realistic, honest point of view, and that takes some introspection that just won't be found in a thread full of "I don't get it? Can you imagine why someone would actually lie? Hmmmm, no, from my morally pure perspective I just can't make the leap to such an completely alien concept...."

Hell, right now I've got Safari spell checking as I type instead of taking the time to proof read and use a dictionary. I've chosen the easy way to accomplish something that I find unworthy of my time at this moment, but I'm sure no one else would stoop to doing such a thing....

Great argument, but the problem needs honest attention with a serious dose of introspection...Trying to douche it away with self righteous indignation just isn't going to get it done..

[Dustdevil]

^ The very definition of moral relativism.

We all draw a line somewhere as to what cheating/lying/stealing is "okay" and what is "wrong". That line may or may not match the legal definition. Would I cheat on an English Literature assignment? Sure. Would I cheat on a medical exam? Nope. Something that is professionally related, and involves human lives is where I draw my line. Others draw it lower. Some draw it higher. But -- and I believe this is your point -- none of us are perfect, and therefore stand on shaky moral ground when judging others. I have never, and would never cheat on a girlfriend or spouse (despite the fact that some have done it to me). But there are people who would and do cheat on their spouse who would probably not cheat on an English Lit assignment. It's all relative.