Cheating? Seriously?!

[Richard B the EMT]

I am blaming Albert Einstein for this… One of his famous quotes "never commit to your memory what you can find in a book."

Momma B and I are in agreement that if you do that, you have to remember what book, where the book is, where in the book, and how what you're looking for is spelled.

While I don't recall specifics, I had, somewhere on the site, mentioned an incident from 20 years ago, where someone broke into the campus computer system and changed their grades from the class in American History my brother teaches. After finding the discrepancy on his own records, and the college did their investigation, the student was expelled.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Richard B the EMT

[joesph]

Is the rating on this post a joke or something that I'm just not getting? I don't see the issue with this post, or with the last few that I've read from joesph, yet each one has been marked with a negative. I can't remember if his posts have been terrible or if he's done something here to make enemies, but if so, how is he supposed to improve if someone is just going to follow him around kicking him in the balls regardless of his post quality?

Whoever put the negative on this post, can you raise your hand and explain why you chose to do so? I think this post is spot on..I'm curious what I'm missing.

I earned the negative rating it is not linked to this post but rather me. It wasnt easy to get this rating it required alot of effort and I get really upset when someone agrees with me and gives me a positive rating which ruins the whole thing. I was at -21 just a few days ago and 3 rude dogs went and ruined it by giving me positive feedback.

As far as cheating on anything the old saying that 'your only cheating yourself' is true, education uses testing to measure whether the approved subject matter has been presented well and that the students have retained it to a level considered acceptable to the governing body in charge of the discipline studied. It is not the end all of the curriculum just a tool to measure teaching skills and student retention. When students fail a course the person at fault is not only the student but the teacher. If you teach a course and your students do the bare minimum or cheat to get by you either did not impress upon the students the importance of your course or did not weed out the students that were not suited for your course.

[Dustdevil]

As far as cheating on anything the old saying that 'your only cheating yourself' is true, education uses testing to measure whether the approved subject matter has been presented well and that the students have retained it to a level considered acceptable to the governing body in charge of the discipline studied. It is not the end all of the curriculum just a tool to measure teaching skills and student retention. When students fail a course the person at fault is not only the student but the teacher. If you teach a course and your students do the bare minimum or cheat to get by you either did not impress upon the students the importance of your course or did not weed out the students that were not suited for your course.

My apologies, but I had to give you a positive vote for that one.

[Lone Star]

And I'm really the only one here that's ever thought about cheating?? Really?? No one here has ever told a lie?? Which of course is just another type of cheating. I can't think of a time when I've wanted to cheat to get something I didn't need, but there were a million times going through school that I was confused, exhausted, or just simply wanted to see a good grade above my name that I'd thought about it. I didn't, but not because I'm somehow morally superior to todays younger generation, but because I grew up in a time when cheating was very, very difficult and the consequences for doing so were so amazingly humiliating that I can't imagine putting myself in the position to face them today.

We like to believe that we are morally superior to those that might cheat, but c'mon folks, these kids are growing up in a world that many of us that are getting a little older help to create. They are operating on the morals and ethics that they've been taught by us and those that came before. They are applying those morals and ethics in a world that allows it. They are what they were created to be, and they remain that way because we, as a society, allow it.

We are all frustrated by people that cheat, and the society that allows them to continue to do so, but to say that we just can't imagine any reason to cheat, any reason to lie, well, that's just bullshit. This problem needs to be addressed, but to address it it needs to be indentified and understood from a realistic, honest point of view, and that takes some introspection that just won't be found in a thread full of "I don't get it? Can you imagine why someone would actually lie? Hmmmm, no, from my morally pure perspective I just can't make the leap to such an completely alien concept...."

Hell, right now I've got Safari spell checking as I type instead of taking the time to proof read and use a dictionary. I've chosen the easy way to accomplish something that I find unworthy of my time at this moment, but I'm sure no one else would stoop to doing such a thing....

Great argument, but the problem needs honest attention with a serious dose of introspection...Trying to douche it away with self righteous indignation just isn't going to get it done...

You raise an interesting point of perspective. While I'm sure we've all been tempted to cheat, (whether we actually admit it or not), it's what we do with that temptation that creates the division.

Sure, I've been tempted to cheat, but I don't give into that temptation because I'm not going to learn that way. I've never accepted the explanation of "Because that's the way it is." or "Because that's the way we do things around here." as an acceptable answer to questions I may have. "Because I said so!" caused me more aggravation as a kid than I care to admit!

Because of this thirst for logical explanations, it's often caused me problems in many areas of my life. I’m sure that there’s a psychological explanation for this, but this thread isn’t about why I am the way I am.

As far as using Safari to spell check as you type, I usually end up proof reading what I post, and then if I'm still having doubts, I run the whole post through Microsoft Word. Yes, there are days I don’t feel like being bothered by it, and you can tell by the posts I’ve had to edit.

I think Dust said it more eloquently and succinctly than I could here:

^ The very definition of moral relativism.

We all draw a line somewhere as to what cheating/lying/stealing is "okay" and what is "wrong". That line may or may not match the legal definition. Would I cheat on an English Literature assignment? Sure. Would I cheat on a medical exam? Nope. Something that is professionally related, and involves human lives is where I draw my line. Others draw it lower. Some draw it higher. But -- and I believe this is your point -- none of us are perfect, and therefore stand on shaky moral ground when judging others. I have never, and would never cheat on a girlfriend or spouse (despite the fact that some have done it to me). But there are people who would and do cheat on their spouse who would probably not cheat on an English Lit assignment. It's all relative.

Am I perfect? Far from it, and I’d only be deluding myself to even entertain that notion.

We all have a ‘moral compass’, and while some may be more skewed than others, all have been shaped by our upbringing. Those of us that were raised in a more ‘strict environment’ or had more parental involvement than most kids today have, will have a stronger sense of right and wrong.

[funkytomtom]

Sigh... You do realize that not all of the younger generation have that sense of entitlement?

I am in college right now doing my medic pre-requisites (among other courses). Not all of these pre-reqs particularly get me off, but beyond daydreaming how nice it would be to be finished with a particular class with a nice grade, I haven't really entertained the idea of cheating. It's simply too satisfying to work hard and see the payoff of a good grade.

Despite all the moralizing I just did, I did "cheat" on a non-school exam the other day. It was proctored very informally and I asked for and received an answer.

Why people cheat though is pretty obvious to me. No commitment/investment+work=cheating.

[DwayneEMTP]

But -- and I believe this is your point -- none of us are perfect, and therefore stand on shaky moral ground when judging others.

That was it to a certain point, but more so was judging the value of complaining of a problem that you have no desire to fix. How do I know there is no real desire to fix it? Because to fix it means to define it and use what resources are available to understand the motivations involved so as to shape a resolution. In this case we all have the resources, which is our own current or previous desire to cheat, or steal, or lie, which the previous posters claim not to possess. So I do know for a fact that those that are upset don't want to solve the problem badly enough to overcome their distaste for introspection where the subject of dishonesty is concerned.

If I want to stop people from beating their kids, which those that have been here a few minutes know is one of my hot buttons, the best, first place to start is to look at myself and ask...

"Have I ever beaten my child?",

"No."

"Have I ever wanted to beat Dylan?",

"Oh hell yeah!",

"Why did I want to beat him?",

"Because his behavior was making me batshit and I wanted it to stop. I couldn't think of any other way to do so.",

"Why didn't I beat him?",

"Because there is a truckload of scientific data showing that I can't control the outcome of punishment. That there is never punishment without unwanted side effects and I am afraid of those side effects. Plus, I think it's unkind."

"Do you believe that you are morally superior to those that beat their children?"

"No, I believe that my education in behaviorism has given me a different perspective as well as a different skill set. My desires are no more pure than theirs, I've simply, luckily, followed a different educational path."

"So is it possible that education is at least part of an answer to getting others to stop beating their children?"

"Yes, I think so."

See? The problem is that we started this thread pretending that no one had any concept of why someone might possibly cheat. And it's impossible to fix the issue from there. As long as we continue to bath the issue in showers of our make believe moral superiority then we're just gonna keep getting cheaters dandruff.

So yeah, I do think it's relative, but I don't believe that that is the weakness here. It's the refusal to acknowledge that this is not a kid problem, it's a problem with the motivations attached to cheating and the lack of reinforcers attached to not cheating that is the issue. Did you notice that Dust mentioned that he would cheat on an English Lit exam, but not a medical one? And did you also notice that he didn't mention, or even imply that those decisions were morally based? Medicine simply has a higher reinforcement value to him than Eng Lit. He didn't apologize for for Eng Lit, nor expound on his moral purity regarding medicine, because those are not the issues. They simply cloud the issues and make people feel good when talked about.

Plus, it pisses me off when it's implied that this is a generational issue. Father Knows Best and Leave It To Beaver were no more accurate representations of "The good ol' days" than Rescue Me is of fire and EMS.

We have to step away from the fantasy, we have to excise the bullshit, and then we can truly begin to resolve problems with morals and ethics. Until then all of the self righteous blather is simply more of the exact same problem, right? Dishonesty?

Dwayne

[gemini1030]

I believe that to many young people feel entitled and must have instant gratification.

When I was in EMT school a couple of months ago most of the younger group really struggled and came to the older group for help. They had never learned to study or do research before. Most of these people are younger than 35. Most of them failed the NR exam first time and some the second time.

It is worse with the younger kids. Just this past weekend I taught the First Aid and Emergency Preparedness merit badges to a bunch of Boy Scouts. They were impossible. Several of them wanted to leave not half way through the class. I told them it was up to them, they could go anytime they wanted. They asked if they could still get the badge about half way out the door. When I told them no they acted like they did not understand. I explained thet if they did not put in the work, they would not get the badge, thay came back in and sat down. I gave them 2 hours to finish some of the work and to bring it back to me. I told them to have it on the table by 18:00. At 18:05 they could not understand why I told them they were late.

They have no sense of work ethic. It scares me to think these are the people that will run our country. No wonder the country is in the shape that it is now, what will it be like in 10 years.

[DwayneEMTP]

I believe that to many young people feel entitled and must have instant gratification.

And I'm going to say the same of you, I'll explain below.

...Just this past weekend I taught the First Aid and Emergency Preparedness merit badges to a bunch of Boy Scouts. They were impossible. Several of them wanted to leave not half way through the class.

Then, and I mean this to be honest, not offensive, your class failed. The older generation owes so much more to the attitude of the younger generation today than they are willing to admit. The science of teaching techniques and strategies has evolved incredibly over the last century yet these 'new' tools lay rusting in the shed of ego and tradition. So many want to teach, yet very few actually want to be judged on their teaching. The older generation is firmly entrenched in THEIR sense of entitlement to continue to do things the way they've always been done despite the fact that they have been, and continue to be, proved to unproductive. They retain their ability to puff out their chests at their academic prowess by blaming children for being poor students.

If you've put yourself in the role of teacher, then you are responsible for creating a curriculum and an environment where children learn. Not where they 'should' learn, but where they do. If you've failed in your task, they should not be held fully responsible, though of course that is an ego shattering concept for those that like to brag of 'teaching.' If you've created a class that is so disengaging that students wish to leave it, you fail. If you choose to blame genetics, youth, video games, or television for the fact that you are unable to teach, then you fail again.

Can you see that your sense of entitlement to call failure success, to call stagnation virtue, to deflect blame instead of embracing it as a catalyst for change, is no less pathologic than the sense of entitlement that you blame on the kids? If you didn't before, yet have the aptitude and critical thinking skills necessary to be influencing young minds, then you should certainly be able to see it now I think.

These issues won't get better until we put ourselves back into the equation. Until we quit saying, "Good God, 'they' can't/won't/don't want to learn!" And instead begin by saying, "Holy shit..what have I been thinking??"

It's not my intention to bust your chops brother. I'm not trying to be insulting, but clear.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions. I look forward to your thoughts.

Dwayne

[Dustdevil]

Plus, it pisses me off when it's implied that this is a generational issue. Father Knows Best and Leave It To Beaver were no more accurate representations of "The good ol' days" than Rescue Me is of fire and EMS.

I have a brother and sister that are 27 and 28 years (respectively) younger than I am. We are from two completely different generations. When they were little kids, and I spent a lot of time with them, they would sometimes drive me absolutely crazy (which is exactly why my dad wanted me to spend time taking care of them!). More than once I asked my dad, "Jeeze... I didn't do that when I was a kid, did I?" The answer was always an incredulous laugh and, "Don't kid yourself!"

I learned to stop asking that question. It's not generational. It's just kids.

[Lisa O]

I am actually myself seeing more and more of that "entitlement" among people of my age. I am not sure if I am just now open about it, or its just becoming more common?

What I am noticing with younger kids and teenagers is a lack of patients. With the INTERNET, I'M, texting, etc. they don't have to wait for anything anymore. Its now now now. So maybe, you can somehow bridge cheating with the thought process of instead of waiting to learn, just taking right then and there?

Also, kids are treated with kid gloves and have been for a generation now. I am very militant with my kids (Army brat here) . When they mess up, it's usually a harsh punishment. I let them know that they chose the action that chose the consequence. I make them think twice about doing something stupid again, or even for the first time. I have not spanked them, I usually make them give up something or do something physical. They know they are loved, and that their father and I are doing what we need to to ensure that they are smart, grounded, productive, active, and healthy members of society when they become adults. They know that to get something you have to work for it. Nothing is handed to them, except at Christmas and birthdays and honor roll. The rest of the time, if they want something, the first thing they do is come up to me or their dad and say, "I want ______, what do I need to do to work for it?" and we set up a plan for them to get _________. They know about dishonesty, and what it can do them as a person, and how even one little lie can haunt them for a long time.