Is this poor judgment or someone being too nosey

[aussiephil]

Technician Roy Amor kills himself after row over 'racist' joke

A HEALTH technician shot himself in the head after being suspended for making a politically incorrect joke.

Roy Amor had jokingly told a black friend and colleague that he "better hide" after he spotted immigration officials at their workplace, Britain's Mail on Sunday reported.

Although the man was not offended, someone who overheard the remark was, and complained to Mr Amor's bosses at Opcare, which makes prosthetic limbs.

Mr Amor, 61, was said to be devastated at the prospect of losing his job and shot himself outside his house, near Bolton, England, just hours after receiving an email from his bosses.

The email had asked him to explain his comment.

According to The Mail on Sunday, Mr Amor left three notes, all of which mentioned Opcare.

One of his friends told the paper: "Roy made a joke along the lines that his friend had better hide in case the officers found him.

"It was nothing more than a good-humoured joke but apparently someone overheard it and made an official complaint because they thought it was racist.

"Roy was devastated when he was suspended and was worried he might lose his job."

Mr Amor had worked at the prosthetics clinic for 30 years and had not faced any disciplinary action before..

Edit of typo only

Edited April 12, 2010 by aussiephil

[tcripp]

With a heavy heart, all I can say is "wow" to this situation. I am all for sexual harassment laws and such, but what ever happened to "a one time joke does not sexual harassment make"? I understand that someone who heard the comment is required to report it, but a 30 day suspension? There apparently is more to this story not in the articles.

I like the time when if someone said something to you or in your presence that you didn't like...that you would let them know how it made you feel. Frankly, that has always had more impact than getting it third party from management. It is in this manner that once can see the effect it has made on that person and can adjust accordingly. (Unless, that is, you have someone who is simply clueless. I think this is where the sexual harassment laws best fit.)

I once got caught up in a joking situation and made a statement that crushed my coworker. The next day, she sent me a note that although she didn't "get" what I had said, she felt offended by it. I was mortified that words out of my mouth could hurt any one and apologized profusely. We were able to put it behind us and move on. That's the way it should be.

[HellsBells]

I like the time when if someone said something to you or in your presence that you didn't like...that you would let them know how it made you feel. Frankly, that has always had more impact than getting it third party from management. It is in this manner that once can see the effect it has made on that person and can adjust accordingly. (Unless, that is, you have someone who is simply clueless. I think this is where the sexual harassment laws best fit.)

Not sure what this story has to do with sexual harrassment.

As to the originial question, what is the sense in reporting this guy? He told a joke to a coworker, who admitted he wasnt offened. Where is the harm? Some people have far too delicate of sensabilities these days.

That said, I don't think anyone can be held responsible for his death, as there would be no reasonable expectation that the compliant would lead to suicide.

[tcripp]

Not sure what this story has to do with sexual harassment.

Sexual Harassment or simply Harassment is the policy to which this person is being held accountable. Speaking s a manager, his conduct potentially interfered with the 3rd party's works performance by creating an offensive work environment.

I'm seeing more and more where there is a zero-tolerance policy but, the first time? I take issue with that. The first time, he should have been spoken to, face to face, and given a warning. This way, he mind would not have seen the worst case scenario to which he reacted.

These laws can be both federal and state laws. You might want to check your local policies...just in case.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tcripp

[HERBIE1]

I understand the need for harassment laws and regulations, but was as mentioned, and is the case with most things, the pendulum has swung wildly in the opposite direction. We know the problems that have caused these laws to be enacted, but we have now gone from someone having no recourse while working in a offensive and hostile workplace to being completely void of any common sense when dealing with these things. Should this guy have been reprimanded- sure. Give the guy a reminder that anything he says can and will be used against him. Reeducate him about appropriate decorum in a work place. Maybe that was all the company was planning to do. In our area, hundreds of thousands of dollars have been awarded to people claiming harassment/hostile workplace, racism, etc. Some of the complaints were questionable as were the motives of the "victims", and yes, some were legitimate issues that needed to be addressed.

We've heard stories like this before- someone overhears a comment, takes offense, and even though the remark was not directed at the person, by most of these laws, they can still claim harm. To me, the complainant should need to prove a pattern of abuse or offensive behavior, not just a single instance or remark. I'm guessing there is more to the story- maybe the company has had recent problems with such incidences, maybe they have paid out settlements, so this employee may have been afraid of the company's possible response to the allegations.

Who knows? Tragic for sure. Maybe the guy was overcome with guilt.

It's a fine line we walk- especially in our business. Most of us engage in gallows humor to deal with the stresses of what we see, and most of us would not be considered to be easily offended or have thin skin, but some do. Inappropriate- to some, horrendous- sometimes. Take a look at any humor, joke, or funny stories about EMS and the medical field. Some outsiders must think we are nuts, but I think many understand it.

Be careful of what you say, folks.

[Lone Star]

I had a situation very similar to this one:

While working in Detroit, I was on a truck with a new partner. She made it very clear that she wasn't the 'easily offended' type and all subjects were 'open for discussion' and that there was no joke that could offend her.

We actually had a ball working together and true enough, all topics were up for discussion. She even shot off a few jokes that kind of stopped me in my tracks, not because of the subject matter, but because a woman was telling them.

All in all, we had a great day and got along well. A couple days later, she was questioned by one of the FTO's about how the shift went/what we talked about and things like that.

My partner answered the questions honestly and candidly. The FTO got 'offended' and went running to the Director of Operations, who promptly called me into his office and gave me the stern talking to about 'zero tolerance for sexual harrassment'.

After getting written up, I refused to work with that woman again. I felt that I was lied to, and I didn't want to work with a partner I couldn't trust.

After a couple weeks of flat out avoiding any contact with her, she finally cornered me and asked why I wouldn't speak to her. Being a basically honest guy who lacks all social graces, I told her that I didn't think it was fair for her to be making the jokes that she did and then go running to the Director of Operations when I participated in the conversation.

She proceeded to tell me (in no uncertain terms) that it wasn't her who went to the Director, but the FTO that interrogated her a couple days later.

Well, needless to say; I wasn't able to get the write-up removed from my file because I wasn't supposed to be able to figure out who filed the complaint.

I don't think it's fair to be able to file a 'vicarious complaint' because you're offended by something that I may have said to someone else. It's nothing more than hearsay at that point, and it's not even admissable in any court.

Just because I have a relationship with kiwimedic that allows jokes and subject matters that some would find offensive, doen't mean that beacause he tells Dwayne that I told a good joke, (and then repeats it); doesn't mean that Dwayne has grounds to go running to Admin because he was offended by a joke that I never told him. I've never understood in this case, how Dwayne can file a complaint because he's offended for kiwimedic.

*DISCLAIMER: The members names were only inserted for conversational purposes. In no way am I implying that the scenario in the previous paragraph ever occurred, or that the actions ever happened.

[HERBIE1]

I had a situation very similar to this one:

While working in Detroit, I was on a truck with a new partner. She made it very clear that she wasn't the 'easily offended' type and all subjects were 'open for discussion' and that there was no joke that could offend her.

We actually had a ball working together and true enough, all topics were up for discussion. She even shot off a few jokes that kind of stopped me in my tracks, not because of the subject matter, but because a woman was telling them.

All in all, we had a great day and got along well. A couple days later, she was questioned by one of the FTO's about how the shift went/what we talked about and things like that.

My partner answered the questions honestly and candidly. The FTO got 'offended' and went running to the Director of Operations, who promptly called me into his office and gave me the stern talking to about 'zero tolerance for sexual harrassment'.

After getting written up, I refused to work with that woman again. I felt that I was lied to, and I didn't want to work with a partner I couldn't trust.

After a couple weeks of flat out avoiding any contact with her, she finally cornered me and asked why I wouldn't speak to her. Being a basically honest guy who lacks all social graces, I told her that I didn't think it was fair for her to be making the jokes that she did and then go running to the Director of Operations when I participated in the conversation.

She proceeded to tell me (in no uncertain terms) that it wasn't her who went to the Director, but the FTO that interrogated her a couple days later.

Well, needless to say; I wasn't able to get the write-up removed from my file because I wasn't supposed to be able to figure out who filed the complaint.

I don't think it's fair to be able to file a 'vicarious complaint' because you're offended by something that I may have said to someone else. It's nothing more than hearsay at that point, and it's not even admissable in any court.

Just because I have a relationship with kiwimedic that allows jokes and subject matters that some would find offensive, doen't mean that beacause he tells Dwayne that I told a good joke, (and then repeats it); doesn't mean that Dwayne has grounds to go running to Admin because he was offended by a joke that I never told him. I've never understood in this case, how Dwayne can file a complaint because he's offended for kiwimedic.

*DISCLAIMER: The members names were only inserted for conversational purposes. In no way am I implying that the scenario in the previous paragraph ever occurred, or that the actions ever happened.

I feel your pain. I've dealt with this issue from the management and employee side of the fence. As a manager, you are supposed to enforce rules and trying to shield the organization from potential liability. In cases such as these, there are huge stakes because if someone files with the EEOC or other agency or watchdog group outside the company, they can result in large fines. Add possible media coverage and those numbers go even higher, and also resulting in bad publicity for the organization. These things also go beyond any collective bargaining agreement and in my experience, any discipline imposed is not likely to be reversed or even diminished.

Stupid- yes. Childish. Yes.

PC run amok- ABSOLUTELY.

I had a situation very similar to this one:

While working in Detroit, I was on a truck with a new partner. She made it very clear that she wasn't the 'easily offended' type and all subjects were 'open for discussion' and that there was no joke that could offend her.

We actually had a ball working together and true enough, all topics were up for discussion. She even shot off a few jokes that kind of stopped me in my tracks, not because of the subject matter, but because a woman was telling them.

All in all, we had a great day and got along well. A couple days later, she was questioned by one of the FTO's about how the shift went/what we talked about and things like that.

My partner answered the questions honestly and candidly. The FTO got 'offended' and went running to the Director of Operations, who promptly called me into his office and gave me the stern talking to about 'zero tolerance for sexual harrassment'.

After getting written up, I refused to work with that woman again. I felt that I was lied to, and I didn't want to work with a partner I couldn't trust.

After a couple weeks of flat out avoiding any contact with her, she finally cornered me and asked why I wouldn't speak to her. Being a basically honest guy who lacks all social graces, I told her that I didn't think it was fair for her to be making the jokes that she did and then go running to the Director of Operations when I participated in the conversation.

She proceeded to tell me (in no uncertain terms) that it wasn't her who went to the Director, but the FTO that interrogated her a couple days later.

Well, needless to say; I wasn't able to get the write-up removed from my file because I wasn't supposed to be able to figure out who filed the complaint.

I don't think it's fair to be able to file a 'vicarious complaint' because you're offended by something that I may have said to someone else. It's nothing more than hearsay at that point, and it's not even admissable in any court.

Just because I have a relationship with kiwimedic that allows jokes and subject matters that some would find offensive, doen't mean that beacause he tells Dwayne that I told a good joke, (and then repeats it); doesn't mean that Dwayne has grounds to go running to Admin because he was offended by a joke that I never told him. I've never understood in this case, how Dwayne can file a complaint because he's offended for kiwimedic.

*DISCLAIMER: The members names were only inserted for conversational purposes. In no way am I implying that the scenario in the previous paragraph ever occurred, or that the actions ever happened.

I feel your pain. I've dealt with this issue from the management and employee side of the fence. As a manager, you are supposed to enforce rules and trying to shield the organization from potential liability. In cases such as these, there are huge stakes because if someone files with the EEOC or other agency or watchdog group outside the company, they can result in large fines. Add possible media coverage and those numbers go even higher, and also resulting in bad publicity for the organization. These things also go beyond any collective bargaining agreement and in my experience, any discipline imposed is not likely to be reversed or even diminished.

Stupid- yes. Childish. Yes.

PC run amok- ABSOLUTELY.

[aussiephil]

I think there is one being human right missed when 'charges' are laid.

I myself was just typing a reply in another thread (yes I still posted it regardless) & realised that what i typed could be construed as ageist. As many of you know I am 19 (have been for years) but I also joke with many people here, whom I have developed friendships with, over their age. I will name them now, because they joke with me also, soem of those could be considered offensive, if they are taken out of context. Some of these include Lone Star, Owleymedic, medicnorth, itku2er, hell even ak & dustdevil!

What is neglected in many of these cases, as with many departmental charges, is that the person is immediatley assumed guilty until they prove their innocense. This is the reverse of most progressive legal systems. This case, as with most others that are similar, should be addressed quickly & with a simple question. The details we have of this case are that there was 1 person who the comment was made to, who took no offence to it. That is where this should end. The 3rd party, although correct in reporting it because they would not know if this was a case of systemic bullying & harrassment, should be advised that nothing further would come of it.

How many times, in every day, do we say something that can be interpreted differently from what was meant? The continual pandering to this Politically Correct BS has to stop.

People need to take control of their own destiny. If I say something that offends you, as this man did, speak to me first, tell me, because I may not have realised. If it continues, then there may be a reason to go to managment.

[HERBIE1]

MODS PLEASE DELETE EXTRA POST.

(BROWSER BURP....)

Edited April 12, 2010 by HERBIE1

[Happiness]

I never thought about the story in that it was about harrasment of any sort (and yes I do get that it is) but more at why is a suicide being reported on. One thing i like about my community is that suicides are not reported in the media. I honestly cant think of many reasons except two where I think that death is the answer.