Dustdevil Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 1aCe3, you're becoming a dangerous, man. Glad I'm not working anywhere near you. You are making dangerous assumptions and taking dangerous actions. You do not have the "authority" to provide a safe scene. You have a RESPONSIBILITY to assure it is safe. Authority and responsibility are completely different things, and if you are taking it as an authority, you are jeopardising yourself, your partner, and your patients. If a scene is not safe, you don't make it safe. You don't go at all. That is what they were trying to tell you in EMT school. If you find yourself on a scene using "authority," you are guilty of disregarding scene safety to begin with. And if you find yourself doing that on a regular basis, you should be fired. You have NO business directing traffic. None whatsoever. Either block it completely or get out of it. That is the full extent of your responsibility. You weren't taught it in EMT school. You weren't tested over it. So where do you get this imagined idea that it is your "authority" to do so? If somebody told you that, they too are dangerous and should be fired. If you think the badge you are wearing inside an ambulance is going to make somebody pull over for your lights and siren, you are seriously delusional. You're letting that badge give you false bravado and a sense of "authority" and invincibility that you simply do not have. Sounds to me like it's giving you a real attitude, and one of those days you're going to stick that badge in somebody's face with an attitude and they're going to shove it up your arse. And if you think that the rest of EMS is going to have any sympathy for you, think again. You will reap what you sow. Once you know everything you need to know about emergency medicine, then you can go learn to be a cop. Until then, focus on your actual profession, not the one you fantasise about when you go to bed at night. By the way, how much time and money have you spent on continuing education in these last nine months? Bought any medical books lately? Have you taken that PHTLS course yet? Yes, you're just stroking your ego, and spending more time trying to be like all the other wackers than trying to be a medical professional.
JakeEMTP Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 To quote the late Alfonso Bedoya, from the film Treasure of the Sierra Madre, " Badges? We ain't got no badges, We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges."
1aCe3 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 Your responsibility to provide a safe scene is in fact made easier if certain assumptions of authority are made by the general bystander (NOT THE EMT). I reiterate that these are for the general direction of bystanders that we deal with everyday, NOT the dangerous scenes which require police assistance. Because let's get real here, we're not going to get police assistance on a majority of our calls, especially if the questionable bystander is a nuisance, not a danger. This is where such "authority" can be helpful. I am NOT saying I am using my so called "authority." I AM saying that the bystander may ASSUME that authority and have a better ear? Capisce? I am CERTAINLY NOT shoving the badge in anyone's face. No bravado, no invisibility. It's a silent tool that may sometimes have an effect. In no way do I believe that I am relying on it. Dust, You seem to continue to misunderstand some of my points. Your critisicms wouldn't cohere to my points if you truly understood what I was trying to say. In order to "quickly block the scene" you ARE going to have to get traffic to stop. To make a long story short, it's just a quick 10 seconds of traffic direction to position the ambulance correctly at times when you do not arrive directly behind the accident - simple/safe, cars are slow moving. No I don't feel that people will pull over for me if I'm wearing a badge. They can't SEE it, nor would I think that b/c I don't think I'm supercop. That was an example of how the public treats EMS in this area contrary to those that they DO know wear badges (Law enforcement). Get this through to your head, it's not like I am acting differently as an EMT because I have a badge and "think" I have so much more authority than I really do. I'm talking about the ASSUMPTIONS of the PUBLIC. We are going to deal with hundreds more bystanders that are going to be a nuisance, than drug dealers that WILL shoot at you. I would NEVER jeapordize the safety of my partner and I. Dust you don't know me. If you'd like to debate on the subject than so be it, but your assumptions on what kind of EMT or person I am is simply unfounded. You are the one stroking your ego by trying to use your experience and knowledge to make others look ridiculous.
sumozebra Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 1aCe3, you're becoming a dangerous, man. Glad I'm not working anywhere near you. You are making dangerous assumptions and taking dangerous actions. You do not have the "authority" to provide a safe scene. You have a RESPONSIBILITY to assure it is safe. Authority and responsibility are completely different things, and if you are taking it as an authority, you are jeopardising yourself, your partner, and your patients. If a scene is not safe, you don't make it safe. You don't go at all. That is what they were trying to tell you in EMT school. If you find yourself on a scene using "authority," you are guilty of disregarding scene safety to begin with. And if you find yourself doing that on a regular basis, you should be fired. You have NO business directing traffic. None whatsoever. Either block it completely or get out of it. That is the full extent of your responsibility. You weren't taught it in EMT school. You weren't tested over it. So where do you get this imagined idea that it is your "authority" to do so? If somebody told you that, they too are dangerous and should be fired. If you think the badge you are wearing inside an ambulance is going to make somebody pull over for your lights and siren, you are seriously delusional. You're letting that badge give you false bravado and a sense of "authority" and invincibility that you simply do not have. Sounds to me like it's giving you a real attitude, and one of those days you're going to stick that badge in somebody's face with an attitude and they're going to shove it up your arse. And if you think that the rest of EMS is going to have any sympathy for you, think again. You will reap what you sow. Once you know everything you need to know about emergency medicine, then you can go learn to be a cop. Until then, focus on your actual profession, not the one you fantasise about when you go to bed at night. By the way, how much time and money have you spent on continuing education in these last nine months? Bought any medical books lately? Have you taken that PHTLS course yet? Yes, you're just stroking your ego, and spending more time trying to be like all the other wackers than trying to be a medical professional. no offence but dust, how long have you been retired? you do know time moves forward, not backward, so what you learnt and what you may have thought you know may not apply to every single situation. Yes you have more experience, yes you have been around longer, but no you don't know it all. have you worked in EVERY single district / county? have you done EVERY job? and if you say yes, then i agre with ace, u're definatly stroking your ego. if not? then thank you, welcoem to the human race. as for "once you know everything in medicine" i HIGHLY doubt that you do, so don't bash people on that. as for "how much time and money have you spent on continuing education in these last nine months?" that's just purely bashing and uncalled for. when was the last time YOU bought any medical books? and read it from cover to cover and that u know it off the back of your head that i can test you on any single aspect. Further more, please work on your reading comprehension skills, understand other people's points, and their ideas first, absorb it, rather than going straight to bashing, i swear your post is prob the most unprofessional post, and "I'm" glad that i'm not working anywhere near you. "Yes, you're just stroking your ego, and spending more time trying to be like all the other wackers than trying to be a medical professional" actually, it seems like you're the one whose stroking the ego, trying to sound superior and making it seem like you know it all. to me, it seems like you're not much of a medical professional to me either from the way you post
Dustdevil Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 Your responsibility to provide a safe scene is in fact made easier if certain assumptions of authority are made by the general bystander (NOT THE EMT). I reiterate that these are for the general direction of bystanders that we deal with everyday, NOT the dangerous scenes which require police assistance. Because let's get real here, we're not going to get police assistance on a majority of our calls, especially if the questionable bystander is a nuisance, not a danger. This is where such "authority" can be helpful. And I am telling you that you do not want people making that assumption! Use your head. Cops get killed and assaulted everyday by people who know for absolutely certain that they are armed cops. Why? Because they either fear or resent the authority. You don't want people fearing or resenting you. How is that difficult to understand? Your 9 months as a basic has failed to give you the understanding of human nature that three months as a cop would have given you. And you're going to have a very rude awakening when you bow up to some bystander someday with your attitude and they knock you the F out. In order to "quickly block the scene" you ARE going to have to get traffic to stop. And no I'm not talking about standing in the middle of the highway for 15 mins, directing cars. Let me clear it up for you. Car crashes on 4 lane highway on left median. Ambulance is on scene, but all the way on the right. Try making a lane change at 5mph on the highway even with L&S. You'd be amazed at how many people don't give a Ca Ca, and realize that they'll be stuck in traffic if they let me block it off. Partner jumps out, and stop the slowing cars. Traffic direction : 15 seconds. So what? am I gonna wait for police or possibly have one of the ass's hit my ambulance while doing it instead? no - car's a moving slow enough (15-25mph), for him to step out safely. Another incredibly stupid plan. First, if the scene isn't safe, it isn't safe. And stepping out of your 1 ton truck into traffic does not make it any safer! Those cars running 65 mph don't see or care about your badge. If they see anything at all, it is just the presence of some sort of uniform. If they are going to stop for a uniform, they are going to do it badge or no badge. Regardless, it is still not your job to do so, and it is against every standard principle of scene safety. You should no more be walking around in unregulated traffic than you should be walking around on an unsecured shooting scene. It's just retarded! Also, you should be wearing a high visibility, fluorescent traffic vest on every roadside incident. If your agency isn't providing you with one, your agency SUCKS, and is not compliant with OSHA regulations. Get this through to your head, it's not like I am acting differently as an EMT because I have a badge and "think" I have so much more authority than I really do. Funny, but so far, everything you have just said says you are. And the fact that you don't even recognise it is very troubling.
1aCe3 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 There is no attitude given towards that bystander. I will ask politely, I will not force him/her to do anything. If he/she complies then good for me. So wher eis this false sense of authority? I absolutely do no believe that I will be able to arrest the douche for not complying!! Can you not see that I am merely bringing up a possible positive point for wearing a shield as part of the uniform?? I would be approaching this the same way as if I did NOT wear a uniform or badge at that. But the question of debate is this - is that bystander more apt to comply because they saw a badge on my uniform? Maybe yes, maybe not. Hell, is the bystander more apt to comply because you have simply a UNIFORM on? Regarding the MVA, I said they were going very slow. This is an example of minor problems/minor dangers that can be dealt with. I'm saying that these instances are not huge situations. Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge some of the points you've made. "And I am telling you that you do not want people making that assumption! Use your head. Cops get killed and assaulted everyday by people who know for absolutely certain that they are armed cops. Why? Because they either fear or resent the authority."
n5iln Posted March 28, 2006 Posted March 28, 2006 You have the Authority to provide a SAFE scene until law enforcement arrives so that you may render medical care. (I'm talking about the direction of bystanders, not gang bangers with guns) (emphasis in original) I'm terribly sorry, but this is 100% incorrect. Uniform or no, badge or no, armband or no, patches or no...an EMS provider has absolutely no more legal authority than an ordinary citizen at an emergency scene. Bystanders might listen to you...or they might choose to beat you senseless; you have no control over them. And EMS providers have absolutely no business attempting to render any scene "safe." In fact, it's just the opposite: EMS providers have a duty to stay clear of a scene until it has been rendered safe, by duly sworn and/or commissioned law-enforcement officers. "Dead heroes save no lives." This was a truism when I first entered EMS some 18 years ago, and it's true now. How true? Ask yourself this: what's the first thing an examiner at an EMT practical exam (in the US, anyway) wants to hear out of your mouth when you're given a scenario, be it trauma assessment, medical assessment, CPR, or any of the other stations? "BSI, scene safety." In NYS it's a critical item; don't say it, you automatically fail the station. That tells me it's just as important as assessing the ABCs. Possibly even more so, since if you enter an unsafe scene, you're dead before you get to the A, and now the other half of your crew has to wait for the scene to be rendered safe before he/she can tend to two victims, instead of just the original one victim that the crew was responded to. Back on the topic of badges...I think they add an immense amount of class to a Class A uniform. But I have absolutely no reason to wear a Class A uniform with my current employer. And where I work, badges == targets. Bullets don't care what the profession of the person they puncture might be. Nobody in the company carries a badge; in fact, I don't believe anyone in the company owns a badge, at least not in our operational area. And I truly believe that to be a Very Good Thing Indeed™. YMMV.
1aCe3 Posted March 29, 2006 Author Posted March 29, 2006 As dust has stated, it is a responsibility of an EMS provider, not the authority there of. Minor case or not. I can agree that EMS providers have no legal authority with this as n5iln as stated. But I repeat again, is this assumed authority by the bystander purchance a benefit to us when they may follow our directions at the scene? Because it's without a doubt that police will not always be on scene to disburse non-hostile bystanders. And you can't tell me that you havn't asked people to move aside so you can do your job. You have no authority in doing this, but you will ask them anyways. The point is arguably countered by the fact that having a shield may actually act as targets. (However what I deal with on a regular basis is not in fact a very hostile environment - perhaps this is why I see it being more of a benefit to have a shield. Then again, people that actually follow my suggestions may be following it simply because they realize I am trying to do my job - not because they think of me as an authority figure). The debate continues... But I wonder this, why is it that certain employers will issue their employee's badges? On a side note, though I recognize this may differ from location, I am curious as to what exactly a "public safety officer" is defined as and what role do they serve.
sumozebra Posted March 29, 2006 Posted March 29, 2006 i'm curious too. Since in new york city, EMT's and Paramedics are considered "Public Safety Officers" and we are also protected under some of the laws, such as it is a felony to attack any public safety officer / peace officer. I don't know how they are in other states or cities, but that's what it is in new york city, we've been given extra roles to play, but yeh.
Dustdevil Posted March 29, 2006 Posted March 29, 2006 i'm curious too. Since in new york city, EMT's and Paramedics are considered "Public Safety Officers" and we are also protected under some of the laws, such as it is a felony to attack any public safety officer / peace officer. I don't know how they are in other states or cities, but that's what it is in new york city, we've been given extra roles to play, but yeh. What extra roles have you been given? Something not in the EMT curriculum? Something they actually trained you and deputised you to do? Something you have a piece of paper authorising you to do? Funny... everybody else who is given such roles is also given a badge. Why weren't you given one? It's this simple folks; If you weren't given a badge, you weren't meant to have one. Same as a gun. To believe otherwise is neither rational nor mature. And what employer actually allows people to pick and choose what they put on their uniform anyhow? :?
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