TX city revives the no paddling in school rule

[croaker260]

I think you need to appreciate the school enviroment that schools have to deal with these days, with kids throwing complete fits at a very young age disrupting the whole class, kicking teachers and getting away with it, etc..

Suspension just moves the problem elsewhere, it doesnt correct it. Either call the parents in to spank them themselves, or swat them and sent them back in class.

Im for spanking. In school and out. I am also for Jr. High and High schoolers working out their arguments "in the ring" with a pair of boxing gloves too. And sending them out to run laps, and putting them to work sweeping the hall on their break for bad behavior.

But then I went to a military boarding school for high school, so I have a special veiw of these tatics, wich I think work.

The age of Dr. Spock has destroyed our society

[spenac]

Yeah, let's go back to the good ol' days. When was that again spenac? 1900? You can't mean that, as women had little rights, gangs more or less ruled the cities, blacks were still routinely beaten, killed and imprisoned without cause.

The 20's? 30's? 40's? Certainly no gang issues, unwanted pregnancies, violence in the street, alcohol problems then, right? Yeah, Google it...

60's? 70's? If I remember correctly, anti government protests were the order of the day. Free love, drugs, anti war protests, sit ins. Are these the kids you are suggesting were 'beaten' into being good little rule followers?

I get so friggin' tired of the pro beating crowd that come to these conversations having put in as much effort as it takes to watch a few years of Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver. Happy Days wasn't real!! Fonzie was a made up TV character! Take a psych class. Make some effort to become educated in behavioral issues. Read a history book. Then you'll see just how ignorant you look when you want to 'beat' your way back to the good ol' days.

For the knuckle draggers beating looks good, it's easy, requires no brains or education, which is why it will remain popular with some. But you know what? The rest of the world has moved on.

Blacks are equal, some of the most powerful people on the planet are women, it's no longer OK to punch a 'queer' because God told you to, and we no longer terrorize our children because we're too stupid to educate them properly.

Try and keep up, huh?

Dwayne

I get tired of the attacking and name calling of those with a different opinion. Your attempt at trying to say I am ignorant has failed. Don't like my opinion fine. State your opinion but leave the negative bull crap out.

[JPINFV]

Here's an idea. How about first we focus on getting teachers who know how to actually teach. One of my main issues with the concept of corporal punishment in schools is that there are too many idiots working in schools. The last thing I want to hear about is some teacher beating little Johnny because little Johnny showed up the teacher and proved him/her wrong, and thus was "disrespectful" or "talked back." I don't want to hear stories about little Susie being beaten at school because little Susie was working ahead, and thus wasn't staying "on assignment" because she was already done with that assignment. Just as there are too many parents who think that it is everyone's but their own job to raise their kids, there are too many little tyrants holding teaching positions to allow the schools to spank children.

Edited April 18, 2010 by JPINFV

[JPINFV]

Here's something else when it comes to respect. How about adults try modeling respect, including showing children respect? Sorry, but adults aren't owed extra special bonus respect because we've manage to not die nor does managing to not die entitle someone to lord over someone else because they're younger than 18. However, all too often people expect "respect" from children while being grade A A-holes.

[DwayneEMTP]

I get tired of the attacking and name calling of those with a different opinion. Your attempt at trying to say I am ignorant has failed. Don't like my opinion fine. State your opinion but leave the negative bull crap out.

I don't believe my post was seriously negative, though I do get exhausted by the ignorant opinions of those that are happy to exert the energy to punish, but have none at at all for study. I made an attempt to show your opinion as ignorant, and believe that I have done so, to a fair extent. You're response of "Oh no it isn't!" fails. This is a forum for debate, not a 5th grade playground. Where is your evidence that there ever were, "Good ol' days?" Where is your evidence that beating by a teacher, and then the principal, and then the parents works? Where is your defense, other than your pouty statement, that your opinion isn't ignorant?

'Ignorant' isn't patently an insult. We do what be believe is best, when we know better, we do better. Your belief in the Good Ol' Days is ignorant as there is no proof, that I'm aware of, that such days ever existed outside of popular media. Your belief that we can use violence to create kind, intelligent, productive human beings has been proved unreliable so many times that it hardly needs to be sourced here.

Here is partly why your thinking is broken. Punishment reinforces the punisher, leading to more punishment. Punishment NEVER comes without unforeseen negative consequences, never. It appears to work because it makes children sit quietly in fear and pay attention to the punisher, which again reinforces the punishers desire to punish further.

Below are a few intelligent, educated sources on the subject to get you started should you want to actually debate this topic instead of complain that your archaic ideals aren't accepted 'just because you say so.'

"What is done to children, they will do to society." - Dr. Karl Menninger

"Train children not by compulsion but as if they were playing." - Plato

"Children ought to be led to honorable practices by means of encouragement and reasoning, and most certainly not by blows and ill treatment." - Plutarch

"Punitive measures whether administered by police, teachers, spouses or parents have well known standard effects: (1) escape--education has its own name for that: truancy, (2) counterattack--vandalism on schools and attacks on teachers, (3) apathy--a sullen do-nothing withdrawal. The more violent the punishment, the more serious the by-products." - B.F. Skinner, PhD

Punishers love to reference Dr. Spock because they, as I, believe that he was a limelight seeking shithead in many ways. But what about the dozens, perhaps hundreds of non-Spock scientists that have come to the educated conclusion that beating children is not a good thing? Why do you simply choose to ignore them? Not that I actually believe that you've made the effort to read Spock before referencing him in your posts. You claim to be an advocate of science base knowledge, so how do you support your opinion on this subject?

Most educated people will concur, I believe, that the authors/researchers I've quoted above should be held as educated, cultured, inspired thinkers. Not the the 'feel good ninnies' that you seem to hate.

I've shown you the respect of addressing your complaint thoroughly I believe, not only explaining my thinking but taking the time to give you several strong paths that are easily followed simply by Googling, (no actual paper books need be involved), that support my argument against corporal punishment in children.

All I ask is that you show me the respect of doing the same in regards to 'the good ol' days' as well as the positive aspects of beating children.

You want to complain about my disrespect towards you. Fair enough. I've attempted to mitigate that. Now let's see if you put your money where your mouth is and do likewise for me, or show yourself to be a hypocrite.

I regret that I can't give JP's posts positives in multiples of 5s, though I doubt that you've agreed with a single thing he's said.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Dwayne

Note: My apologies for the crappy formating. Through the cut and pastes it got out of control, and as it's the middle of the night I've simply run out of patience for trying to sort it all out. Hopefully it remains readable.

[DwayneEMTP]

I think you need to appreciate the school enviroment that schools have to deal with these days, with kids throwing complete fits at a very young age disrupting the whole class, kicking teachers and getting away with it, etc..

I agree that I need to understand it, not appreciate it, and what I understand is that it's failed. It's been proved to be a failure for almost 100 years, yet we continue to do things the same way. How about instead of holding a child responsible for the schools failure we create an educational system that doesn't make children so scared, bored, angry and frustrated that they need to exhibit these behaviors in the first place? How about if we hold the 'grown ups' responsible for the education of children instead of the children? Doesn't that seem to be a more logical, realistic approach to educating?

Suspension just moves the problem elsewhere, it doesnt correct it. Either call the parents in to spank them themselves, or swat them and sent them back in class.

A lazy, ignorant approach to problem solving. Please see my reply to spenac.

Im for spanking. In school and out....

Then from a logical, educated point of view you fail. This is not a personal attack brother, it's simply a statement based on a review of the overwhelming data opposed to your point of view.

I am also for Jr. High and High schoolers working out their arguments "in the ring" with a pair of boxing gloves too. And sending them out to run laps, and putting them to work sweeping the hall on their break for bad behavior.

I'm not in complete disagreement here, only the subject of the punishment is at issue. Why are you choosing to punish a child for reacting to the environment that they are forced by law to be subjected to? I believe when a child skips school, throws a tantrum, attacks a teacher that the teacher, as well as the school administration should do as you've mentioned above. You don't like that statement much do you? Nor do any of the adults that are subjected to such critical review, as it makes them responsible for their behavior instead of allowing a society approved way of deflecting their failures onto our children. Until we, as those with the physical/intellectual power, take responsibility, as a society, for our failures in raising and educating our children, nothing is going to change.

But then I went to a military boarding school for high school, so I have a special veiw of these tatics, wich I think work.

See, now you're no longer comparing apples to apples. In the military environment there is an entire process built around the punishment process. The positives and negatives are considered, self esteem is a high priority and scientific processes are in place to evaluate and mitigate the results from the rewards and punishments supplied by the powers that be. No such process is in place in the public school system. Again, outside of a machine meant to create warriors, this system is still well proved to be the weak sister of a motivational, reward bases system, but it's unfair to compare an educated, well considered system of rewards and punishments to that of the public school system of, "They should be punished because they didn't do what I said!"

The age of Dr. Spock has destroyed our society

Could you please list the books by Spock that you've actually read? I'm more than willing to bet the list will equal zero. Is there any chance that people can stop referencing authors and data that they have no more exposure to than what they've gleened from an Oprah commercial? Thanks.

Dwayne

[Mateo_1387]

Here's something else when it comes to respect. How about adults try modeling respect, including showing children respect? Sorry, but adults aren't owed extra special bonus respect because we've manage to not die nor does managing to not die entitle someone to lord over someone else because they're younger than 18. However, all too often people expect "respect" from children while being grade A A-holes.

Of course, since the kid is under 18, they are still earning their respect status through spankings and punishment... But, as arguments have been stated in the past on this site, why are we not spanking adults ? What makes kids so special that they get spanked, but not adults?

I look even more lowly upon those that think their kids deserve to be spanked, but only by them. By God if someone else spanks their child it is assault, but it is quite ok for the parent to spank? WTF?

[spenac]

I've shown you the respect of addressing your complaint thoroughly I believe, not only explaining my thinking but taking the time to give you several strong paths that are easily followed simply by Googling, (no actual paper books need be involved), that support my argument against corporal punishment in children.

All I ask is that you show me the respect of doing the same in regards to 'the good ol' days' as well as the positive aspects of beating children.

You want to complain about my disrespect towards you. Fair enough. I've attempted to mitigate that. Now let's see if you put your money where your mouth is and do likewise for me, or show yourself to be a hypocrite.

I will not get drawn into this discussion and waste your time and more importantly my time as you and I both know as educated people for every so called expert you find for your opinion I can find one to back mine and this would never end.

I will address again why I have a problem with you though. I have no problem with a person having a different opinion. Though I disagree with your opinion I choose not to attack you by calling you names. All I ask is that you refrain from personal attacks when you disagree. Post your opinion and include a so called experts statement. Good for you. But rather than doing that you choose to attempt school ground bully techniques and then follow up when called out with the above attempt to try and provoke. So now I have shown you and all the other readers of this forum proper respect in two ways: 1. Not wasted their time with numerous quotes that will have no bearing on their opinions as they have also made educated decisions and also have Bing. 2. I have shown you the respect of explaining a way you could improve without any insults what so ever.

I will end now with no name calling unlike the way you chose to end. That is showing respect for your fellow human. Have a great day.

[akflightmedic]

I will not get drawn into this discussion and waste your time and more importantly my time as you and I both know as educated people for every so called expert you find for your opinion I can find one to back mine and this would never end.

Could I see one?

[spenac]

Could I see one?

Yes they are on Bing, google and many other search engines, as told Dwayne will not get into that never ending cirle. Just like the anti spanking you find quacks and quality of course depends on which side you stand often as to which catagory you place each expert.

With all respect.