TX city revives the no paddling in school rule

[akflightmedic]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/culture/family/2701-new-study-finds-spanking-is-good-for-kids

“According to the research, children spanked up to the age of 6 were likely as..."

So up to age of 6...nothing about AFTER age 6 which would be the school ages we are discussing, nothing positive about this range. The study is flawed as well, as it only asked them if they remembered open handed ass beatings.

Response to above article...http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2010/01/04/2010-01-04_spanking_makes_kids_perform_better_in_school_study.html

For some serious laughs, read these comments...

http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1116929596.htm

This one simply references the bible and says you are disobeying god if you do not spank.

http://www.usingspankingdiscipline.com/

Good rules here...http://www.wikihow.com/Include-Spanking-in-Child-Discipline

With ALL RESPECT Sir, every search engine churned out same articles. There is one flawed study at the top, several heavily biased "christian" articles with no scientific fact and then everything else in support of no spanking.

If you have any scientific studies of how spanking is good, I am all eyes...

[DwayneEMTP]

Yes they are on Bing, google and many other search engines, as told Dwayne will not get into that never ending cirle. Just like the anti spanking you find quacks and quality of course depends on which side you stand often as to which catagory you place each expert.

With all respect.

I try and treat you with respect spenac, but like this, too often you're putting forth bullshit. The, "For every expert you have I can find another one." is a cop out and beneath you. You can't, and you damned well know it.

If you don't want to participate, fine. But don't be a chicken and try and put forth a non argument as an actual argument.

Not a single person was fooled by your nonsense.

Dwayne

[emtannie]

I finally got around to reading this thread, and as I read, I found some posts I would like to respond to.

JPINV posts: “Here's an idea. How about first we focus on getting teachers who know how to actually teach. One of my main issues with the concept of corporal punishment in schools is that there are too many idiots working in schools. ….(edit) ….. Just as there are too many parents who think that it is everyone's but their own job to raise their kids, there are too many little tyrants holding teaching positions to allow the schools to spank children.”

I have heard horror stories of some educational systems where the teachers do not need more than a Grade 12 diploma to be able to teach. My hope is that is the exception, not the norm.

We all know that there are poor teachers, just as there are poor doctors, and poor paramedics, and poor garbagemen (oops, that isn’t politically correct – “sanitation engineers”)

JPINV, I do agree with your comment about “too many parents who think it is everyone’s but their own job to raise their kids.” I do not think that the ills of society can be completely dumped in the classroom. These children have parents, many of whom have no parenting skills because they themselves lived in homes where their parents did not provide structure or rules, so they can’t possibly instill that in their children.

Teachers are in classrooms with how many students? How many of those students are special needs, non-english speaking, haven’t eaten in 2 days, or have other complications that interfere with learning, issues that came from home, and then were multiplied at school? And yet parents expect their child to be well-educated, well-read, and the model of society, when the school system is in disarray – how can we expect a teacher to do with 40 children what a parent can’t do with one?

Yes, I agree with you, that there are teachers who are idiots – and there are teachers who want to discipline by hitting… but I do not think that those are in the majority, and they should be removed from the system.

DwayneEMTP posted: “I agree that I need to understand it, not appreciate it, and what I understand is that it's failed. It's been proved to be a failure for almost 100 years, yet we continue to do things the same way. How about instead of holding a child responsible for the schools failure we create an educational system that doesn't make children so scared, bored, angry and frustrated that they need to exhibit these behaviors in the first place? How about if we hold the 'grown ups' responsible for the education of children instead of the children? Doesn't that seem to be a more logical, realistic approach to educating?”

I agree to a point… however, nowhere in this post, do I see that the parents should take the majority of the responsibility., You did say that “Until we, as those with the physical/intellectual power, take responsibility, as a society, for our failures in raising and educating our children, nothing is going to change.” Yes, society should… but the largest responsibility remains with the parent. Now Dwayne, I think I know you well enough that you would agree with me that the parent has the most responsibility.

I recall the threads on Obama health care, and the comments of “I had this child, it is my job to pay for their health care.” Should this same attitude not apply to their education, and turning these children into human beings who are conscientious, willing to work, and who respect themselves and others? Again, Dwayne, I suspect you will agree with me on this.

We can jump up and down about schools and teachers all we want…. But the weight of the problem starts at home, and needs to be solved at home.

Do we need paddling in schools? Should there be paddling in schools? Definitely NOT! We need parents who are willing to discipline their children, who are willing to spend time with their children, and who are role models for their children. We need families who value honesty and hard work, and consequences for bad behavior. We need parents who, instead of saying “it couldn’t possibly be my child, because he is such a good boy at home” to realize that their little golden child is quite possibly not so golden when their back is turned. We need parents who do more than throw money at their children instead of parenting. And, we need parents to support those teachers who are doing quality work, and parents who will speak up against teachers who break the will of students to learn through their own lack of control.

[Dustdevil]

In the military environment there is an entire process built around the punishment process. The positives and negatives are considered, self esteem is a high priority and scientific processes are in place to evaluate and mitigate the results from the rewards and punishments supplied by the powers that be.

LOL! Theoretically, maybe. But had you ever gone to military school, or served in the military, you'd realise what a crock that is.

[Lone Star]

I've seen kids that require no more 'discipline' than simply raising your voice to show displeasure, and I've seen kids that you can beat the hell out of, and it will change nothing.

So which method is 'better'?

I've been on both ends of the corporal punishment scene. I've had one parent who was abusive with it, and another that only used it when nothing else seemed to be effective.

I can say this about the the total way I was raised. I don't use drugs, I've never been to prison, I'm not an alcoholic and I've actually attempted to make something of my life.

Is this the direct result of corporal punishment, or because I had at least one parent that stuck their nose in my 'business' and made sure I was doing things the way they should be done? It's hard to say for sure.

It might have been one or the other....or a combination of both.

As far as disciplining MY children, I'm one of those people that try to make the punishment fit the 'crime'. Corporal punishment isn't the only 'tool' we have as parents.

My views on coroporal punishment aside, I don't feel that it's a teacher/principal or other school official's job to discipline my child. As a parent, that is my RESPONSIBILITY.

There's a quote attributed to George Carlin that goes something like this: "It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child. It DOES however, take parents to get off their lazy ass and actually give a damn!"

As a mechanic, I fill my toolbox with all the proper tools to effectively repair and maintain my vehicle. As a parent, I must do the same thing to be able to effectively raise and guide my child. As the mechanic might pass the toolbox onto his/her children, we must do the same with our 'parenting toolbox'.

For those that advocate corporal punishment for all offenses, this is all that the child will have in their 'parenting toolbox', and the cycle continues.

I was strong enough to 'break the cycle' when it came to dealing with the kids in my life, (a former step daughter, and a son and daughter of my own). Sadly, there are parents out there that are only perpetuating this cycle.

[spenac]

I try and treat you with respect spenac, but like this, too often you're putting forth bullshit. The, "For every expert you have I can find another one." is a cop out and beneath you. You can't, and you damned well know it.

If you don't want to participate, fine. But don't be a chicken and try and put forth a non argument as an actual argument.

Not a single person was fooled by your nonsense.

Dwayne

There you go again. Have a great day.

[croaker260]

I agree that I need to understand it, not appreciate it, and what I understand is that it's failed. It's been proved to be a failure for almost 100 years, yet we continue to do things the same way. How about instead of holding a child responsible for the schools failure we create an educational system that doesn't make children so scared, bored, angry and frustrated that they need to exhibit these behaviors in the first place? How about if we hold the 'grown ups' responsible for the education of children instead of the children? Doesn't that seem to be a more logical, realistic approach to educating?

A lazy, ignorant approach to problem solving. Please see my reply to spenac.

Then from a logical, educated point of view you fail. This is not a personal attack brother, it's simply a statement based on a review of the overwhelming data opposed to your point of view.

I'm not in complete disagreement here, only the subject of the punishment is at issue. Why are you choosing to punish a child for reacting to the environment that they are forced by law to be subjected to? I believe when a child skips school, throws a tantrum, attacks a teacher that the teacher, as well as the school administration should do as you've mentioned above. You don't like that statement much do you? Nor do any of the adults that are subjected to such critical review, as it makes them responsible for their behavior instead of allowing a society approved way of deflecting their failures onto our children. Until we, as those with the physical/intellectual power, take responsibility, as a society, for our failures in raising and educating our children, nothing is going to change.

See, now you're no longer comparing apples to apples. In the military environment there is an entire process built around the punishment process. The positives and negatives are considered, self esteem is a high priority and scientific processes are in place to evaluate and mitigate the results from the rewards and punishments supplied by the powers that be. No such process is in place in the public school system. Again, outside of a machine meant to create warriors, this system is still well proved to be the weak sister of a motivational, reward bases system, but it's unfair to compare an educated, well considered system of rewards and punishments to that of the public school system of, "They should be punished because they didn't do what I said!"

Could you please list the books by Spock that you've actually read? I'm more than willing to bet the list will equal zero. Is there any chance that people can stop referencing authors and data that they have no more exposure to than what they've gleened from an Oprah commercial? Thanks.

Dwayne

Appreciate vs Understand: Semantics.

I believe it was Raising Children in tough times, it was my mothers. And , I have read articles and books wich have referenced his other considerable work.

My grandmother, who was a 40 plus year school elementary teacher with a masters in Education thought it was a crock as well, though that was a much later and different conversation. I can easily say that if my grandmother hadn't taken charge of my education, I would probably be wearing a prisoner number right now.

From my point of view, all the anti-spank group seem to think that the world is made up of parents who beat their kids senseless at the drop of the hat, producing bullies and brutes that would be perfect members of society if only the rod had been spared. On the other end are the pro-spank parents who see a world out of control and children with no consequences bullying the world at large while protected from consequences by the misguided intentions of the anti-spank touchy feely groups.

Obviously we both fall at different ends of the spectrum but let me share my perspective. And you will note, I will do it WITHOUT calling you lazy, ignorant, or similar terms, which is more than you have done.

When we speak of the military, I believe I am comparing apples to apples, because I was talking about the military school approach to educating children. My military school took in children from 6th through 12 grades.

My tenure in military school, and in the military afterward, was far from scientific. It is the simple evolution of some practices that worked and some that possibly did not, but in the end it prepared me for real life. Punishment was harsh at time, without a grievence process, and was administered by fellow cadets or soldiers as often as it was by the "chain of command" (peer pressure can be a powerful motivator). It simply taught a deal with it and move on attitude, self petty curling up in a ball and hoping that someone else will fix your problems approach doesnt work. My upbringing in this system was at times harsh and unpleasant. But my coperal punishment was as often harsh physical labor (ever shovel coal for 8 hours?) and physical conditioning and rarely actual paddling. But the knowledge was ALWAYS THERE that if i didnt comply, if I didnt do my part...there was always one unbendable, unavoidable punishment at the end of the day.

Todays schools dont have that, and without a "buck stops here" attitude, no amount of well reasoned rewards systems of hugs will work. And suspension is not it. To many kids suspension is a vacation, not a punishment. Its street credit. Its time off. Its a (in a twisted sense) a reward.

And they continue this pathway until they are 18. Now there is a "final punishment", Prison or Death. And they are often unprepared for this new life paradigm. And we as a society are at fault now. Because we did not train them as children for the harsh world that exists, and these problem children, we actually encouraged on their problem path though this touchy feely approach, and act surprised when they continue it in adult hood.

You asked "Why are you choosing to punish a child for reacting to the environment that they are forced by law to be subjected to?". ( sense a pro-homeschooling agenda here, but I will let it lay)The solution is simple, As adults they are forced into an unfair, harsh and unforgiving reality. Do we say to the murderer.."I am sorry, your street environment was harsh and unforgiving, and it is not fair that you are forced to live in poverty....so we will give you a pass on this?" No. Teach them consequences now and they will be better prepared down the road.

NOw I am not saying that spanking is the solution, or the ONLY solution, but it needs to be in the process. Because a little temporary pain now (wether in the form of spanking, push-ups, laps, physical labor, or just extra homework) now as children will definitely prevent prevent permanent pain (in the form of prison, bullets, or the well deserved street level beat down) as an adult.

Thats not science, and it doesnt fit in with todays thoughts of what reality should be.....but that IS reality.

As my old PA in the army once said...Pain builds character.

And that is perhaps what our arguments are really about... building character.

Edited April 19, 2010 by croaker260

[DwayneEMTP]

Appreciate vs Understand: Semantics.

I disagree.

Web definitions for appreciate

recognize with gratitude; be grateful for

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context

Understand; know and comprehend the nature or meaning of;Same source as above.

I believe it was Raising Children in tough times, it was my mothers. And , I have read articles and books wich have referenced his other considerable work.

I don't understand this paragraph.

My grandmother, who was a 40 plus year school elementary teacher with a masters in Education thought it was a crock as well, though that was a much later and different conversation. I can easily say that if my grandmother hadn't taken charge of my education, I would probably be wearing a prisoner number right now.

I'm glad, though I have a feeling this paragraph references the one above, so I don't completely understand it either.

From my point of view, all the anti-spank group seem to think that the world is made up of parents who beat their kids senseless at the drop of the hat, producing bullies and brutes that would be perfect members of society if only the rod had been spared. On the other end are the pro-spank parents who see a world out of control and children with no consequences bullying the world at large while protected from consequences by the misguided intentions of the anti-spank touchy feely groups.

I think you make a great point here. Both sides of the argument tend to speak in absolutes and extremes. I can see where this is productive sometimes, it's called 'exaggerating for clarity' or some such thing. I do believe that the argument with less extremes might happen between two people committed to exploring the question, but pretty tough here when the non extreme situations are near infinite.

Obviously we both fall at different ends of the spectrum but let me share my perspective. And you will note, I will do it WITHOUT calling you lazy, ignorant, or similar terms, which is more than you have done.

Unfortunately you make the same mistake that spenac makes with that sentence. You've chosen to take it as an insult instead of the clear description it was meant to be. I do believe that using physical force instead of the positive techniques which are proved to be superior is ignorant, (uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning) and lazy (Unwilling to do work or make an effort; Requiring little or no effort) both of which I believe to be perfectly accurate representations of my opinion of the issues we're discussing.

When we speak of the military, I believe I am comparing apples to apples, because I was talking about the military school approach to educating children. My military school took in children from 6th through 12 grades.

My tenure in military school, and in the military afterward, was far from scientific. It is the simple evolution of some practices that worked and some that possibly did not, but in the end it prepared me for real life. Punishment was harsh at time, without a grievence process, and was administered by fellow cadets or soldiers as often as it was by the "chain of command" (peer pressure can be a powerful motivator). It simply taught a deal with it and move on attitude, self petty curling up in a ball and hoping that someone else will fix your problems approach doesnt work. My upbringing in this system was at times harsh and unpleasant. But my coperal punishment was as often harsh physical labor (ever shovel coal for 8 hours?) and physical conditioning and rarely actual paddling. But the knowledge was ALWAYS THERE that if i didnt comply, if I didnt do my part...there was always one unbendable, unavoidable punishment at the end of the day.

Of course I have to bow to your experience here. Other than my brush with the military in Afg, and watching the video series "The Making of A Marine' I have no experience to compare, so my opinions on the military school came from a pretty shallow pool.

I hope you didn't interpret my post to mean disrespect to you or your school. It actually was intended to be the opposite. I do believe that there should be a 'buck stops here' point, the problem is that if it exists it is usually not severe enough to be definitive, and there are normally a whole bunch of 'the buck is almost stopping here, not really, but I'm going to make you a little bit miserable hoping I don't have to go to the mat." Know what I mean? One can be productive, the other is very destructive to trust and behavior.

...Todays schools dont have that, and without a "buck stops here" attitude, no amount of well reasoned rewards systems of hugs will work.

Because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Reinforcement schedules work, 100% of the time in biologically sound individuals, but like punishment requires education and practice to perfect. Both types of management will require a reworking of our current systems, and if we accept that as truth, then why would we choose to devolve to a system known to be weak and riddled with unforeseen consequences instead of attempting to move forward toward scientifically proven systems?

And suspension is not it. To many kids suspension is a vacation, not a punishment. Its street credit. Its time off. Its a (in a twisted sense) a reward.

I agree, but of course again, there will be exceptions, but I believe this to be the rule.

And they continue this pathway until they are 18. Now there is a "final punishment", Prison or Death. And they are often unprepared for this new life paradigm. And we as a society are at fault now. Because we did not train them as children for the harsh world that exists, and these problem children, we actually encouraged on their problem path though this touchy feely approach, and act surprised when they continue it in adult hood.

I see where you're going, but you logic seems to be saying that they go off into the ditch because we didn't 'toughen em' up' as kids, make them harder. I would argue that most of the bad things that happen happen because kids are too tough but not smart enough. we do agree that it is societies fault, only I believe that it's theirs from the beginning, not just when things go bad. Society needs to start preventing problems instead of putting all of it's energy into punishing them..then we'll have something to brag about.

(Had to break this down into two posts)

You asked "Why are you choosing to punish a child for reacting to the environment that they are forced by law to be subjected to?". ( sense a pro-homeschooling agenda here, but I will let it lay)

Fair assumption, but incorrect. :-)

The solution is simple, As adults they are forced into an unfair, harsh and unforgiving reality. Do we say to the murderer.."I am sorry, your street environment was harsh and unforgiving, and it is not fair that you are forced to live in poverty....so we will give you a pass on this?" No. Teach them consequences now and they will be better prepared down the road.

We've given them consequences from beatings to prison up to and including death? How is that working out?

The mistake we make is believing that the murderer was created in a vacuum. Should we give him/her a pass? No, we couldn't even if we felt we should. Where we commit the epic fail is in saying, "Whew, at least that bad person is gone!" He wasn't born bad, he was shaped to be bad. We should be ashamed of that and do everything in our power to prevent it from happening even one more time. Violence against kids has been proved to create such behavior, yet no one in this conversation has shown a single piece of evidence that says it helps prevent it. Right?

NOw I am not saying that spanking is the solution, or the ONLY solution,...

Awesome!

...but it needs to be in the process.

Again, man, please present evidence that this has any truth in fact.

...Because a little temporary pain now (wether in the form of spanking, push-ups, laps, physical labor, or just extra homework) now as children will definitely prevent prevent permanent pain (in the form of prison, bullets, or the well deserved street level beat down) as an adult.

See! We can agree on this! The things you list above are not violent. They teach work ethic and accountability, not that problems are solved by using violence against those that are weaker than you are! I get that! I don't think anyone here is opposed to the intelligent application of punishment, it's the application of violence, then followed by the wide eyed shock that our kids decide to use violence that I believe confuses many of us. I think I get what you're getting at. Is it possible that we agree more than it might first appear?

...Thats not science, and it doesnt fit in with todays thoughts of what reality should be.....but that IS reality.

It is my most sincere wish for you that you would choose to take that sentence back. You've taken your intelligent conversation and pushed right back to the ignorant dark ages with those words, I don't believe that you mean them.

As my old PA in the army once said...Pain builds character.

Challenges build character. Intentional pain builds fear, resentment, anger, and in many cases retaliation.

And that is perhaps what our arguments are really about... building character.

We agree here completely. It's just that one of us wants to build it using proved techniques that improve people as kind, productive human beings and the other wants to fly by the seat of his pants using tradition and urban myth and hope for the best. But that's why we have these discussions, right? To try and understand and become better?

Thanks for you thoughts brother. I look forward to them.

Dwayne

Yeah, it didn't like the length of my post as one piece, so I broke it into two posts, and the City combined it again as one and it doesn't like it again. Fuck it, I'm leaving it as it is....

[Mateo_1387]

I've seen kids that require no more 'discipline' than simply raising your voice to show displeasure, and I've seen kids that you can beat the hell out of, and it will change nothing.

So which method is 'better'?

This comment does not say much. What kind of environment did the kid live in to deserve to get the hell beat out of him/her?

I can agree with you that beating the hell out of a child will not change anything. Knee jerk reactions teach nothing productive. Beating the hell out of a kid is going to teach fear, pain, and teach that violence is a solution to most of life’s problems. Teaching a child how to handle situations in life in an effective manner goes a lot farther than striking a child and leaving them with no tools to handle life’s situations in the long run.

I've been on both ends of the corporal punishment scene. I've had one parent who was abusive with it, and another that only used it when nothing else seemed to be effective.

I can say this about the the total way I was raised. I don't use drugs, I've never been to prison, I'm not an alcoholic and I've actually attempted to make something of my life.

Drug users and alcoholics are not necessarily bad people. Everyone in prison is innocent, so I will not go there. Haha.

So, did spanking keep you from making decisions in your life that can be negative and unhealthy, or did having an understanding of how life works and how to handle situations prevent the negative and unhealthy in your life?

Where are smokers in your list of drug abusers and alcoholics? Are all smokers bad people too?

My views on coroporal punishment aside, I don't feel that it's a teacher/principal or other school official's job to discipline my child. As a parent, that is my RESPONSIBILITY.

So, when you get to be an old fart and your children decide to be responsible adults and take care of you in their home, is it ok for them to spank you when you do something wrong?

As a mechanic, I fill my toolbox with all the proper tools to effectively repair and maintain my vehicle. As a parent, I must do the same thing to be able to effectively raise and guide my child. As the mechanic might pass the toolbox onto his/her children, we must do the same with our 'parenting toolbox'.

Teaching your children violence to solve most of life’s issues seems like a worthless tool to pass along.

For those that advocate corporal punishment for all offenses, this is all that the child will have in their 'parenting toolbox', and the cycle continues.

I agree bro, we are getting somewhere. The tools a child needs are those which promote self improvement, and in my opinion, without the use of violence.

This reminds me of some parents that say ‘I made my child smoke a cigarette so they would be turned off to the idea of smoking’. Let us get this straight, you are going to make the child smoke, expose the kid to this ‘tool’, and then expect him not to use it (the tool, which is smoking). WTF?

It is like saying, I do not want my child to be violent, but I am going to be violent to scare the child into doing what I expect, and then expect them not to use violence…

It seems the knee jerk reaction of spanking teaches that it is ok to have knee jerk reactions to life situations.

My take on things…

Matt

[Lone Star]

This comment does not say much. What kind of environment did the kid live in to deserve to get the hell beat out of him/her?

I can agree with you that beating the hell out of a child will not change anything. Knee jerk reactions teach nothing productive. Beating the hell out of a kid is going to teach fear, pain, and teach that violence is a solution to most of life’s problems. Teaching a child how to handle situations in life in an effective manner goes a lot farther than striking a child and leaving them with no tools to handle life’s situations in the long run.

Drug users and alcoholics are not necessarily bad people. Everyone in prison is innocent, so I will not go there. Haha.

So, did spanking keep you from making decisions in your life that can be negative and unhealthy, or did having an understanding of how life works and how to handle situations prevent the negative and unhealthy in your life?

Where are smokers in your list of drug abusers and alcoholics? Are all smokers bad people too?

So, when you get to be an old fart and your children decide to be responsible adults and take care of you in their home, is it ok for them to spank you when you do something wrong?

Teaching your children violence to solve most of life’s issues seems like a worthless tool to pass along.

I agree bro, we are getting somewhere. The tools a child needs are those which promote self improvement, and in my opinion, without the use of violence.

This reminds me of some parents that say ‘I made my child smoke a cigarette so they would be turned off to the idea of smoking’. Let us get this straight, you are going to make the child smoke, expose the kid to this ‘tool’, and then expect him not to use it (the tool, which is smoking). WTF?

It is like saying, I do not want my child to be violent, but I am going to be violent to scare the child into doing what I expect, and then expect them not to use violence…

It seems the knee jerk reaction of spanking teaches that it is ok to have knee jerk reactions to life situations.

My take on things…

Matt

I think you've misunderstood the entire content and intent of my post. At no time did I advocate using corporal punishment to discipline children. As a matter of fact, my posting was purely observational, and I intentionally left my personal feelings out it.

By doing so, I merely pointed out that there are other methods available to discipline children. Furthermore, by not getting emotionally caught up in the debate, I beliveve I've given creedence to my observations.

I'm glad you think that we're making 'progress', but since I remained purely obeservational in the entire posting; how can you presume to know which side of the debate I'm advocating? It seems to me that you've already made up your mind that I advocate one method over the other, when in fact, I've remained entirely neutral.