Younger Partners

[Starlight]

A question directed toward "older" and more experienced EMS personnel:

How do you feel about working with a partner that's significantly younger than you (i.e. in the 19-21 range)? Assuming that they are competent and professional while on the job, does the age dif make a difference in your work relationship? Personal relationship? If you had the choice would you instead choose an older partner with more years on the job?

I myself am a younger EMT and have been extremely priviledged to work with a group of awesome EMS professionals that have been on my side and rooting for me all along. Even the senior ones have chosen to treat me with respect and seem extremely genuine in their desire to be not only my teacher, but my friend. They've made a large effort to make me part of the group, despite a significant age difference.

I cannot say what this has meant to me! They've truly helped me to grow into myself and develop confidence. Young people need mentors like this.

I'd like to know how other EMS agencies function in this regard. Is this common? I pick up off this site (from some) a certain level of cynicism and belittling toward anyone "below" them, as in level of training, ect. Am I mistaken in that assumption? (I do realize that a LOT is to be said for training and experience and that it deserves respect - I'm not downing on that.) Everyone starts small. What if all the more senior EMS professionals were to, instead of belittling and degrading the less experienced, become encouragers, inspiring their younger EMS brother's and sister's on and challenging them to better their work ethic and all other aspects of their job? Leave a legacy, so to speak.

Thank you to those of you who already do this. You're the horoes.

[Don1977]

As long as they know there job and what to do, It don't matter to me.......I've seen older medics/emts that are horrible

[DwayneEMTP]

I really like working with most of the younger people in our service, though most of them could be considered younger when compared to me.

Age is really unimportant to me. I love to watch people learn, like to watch their confidence grow. We have a kid that's a full time fireman working with us as a part time basic. We ran a call to Detox, an intoxicated pt well known to me. He was working fire and asked if he could get the IV. I said sure, "Get me a 14 or 16." I wanted to make him uncomfortable, as he's not had much experience starting IVs. He was, but he jumped in, grabbed a 14 and proceeded to miss his stick. I told him to go again, he did, again with a 14 (I really liked the fact that he didn't default to a smaller catheter when he got nervous) and got his stick. He simply trusted that I knew what I was doing, jumped in and did something that made him nervous, and asked later why I did what I'd done.

After the call I explained to him that the Detox crowd isn't popular with our local ER and that most often they will simply be cleared and returned, where often we'll run on them again in the next few hours. Much of their discomfort comes from being dehydrated by the alcohol and that I can run a full bag of fluid through a 14-16 in the time I have them and mitigate some of their suffering plus possibly the need to run them again in the next few hours. (People sometimes believe I use these sizes to punish our frequent fliers, but the opposite is actually true. I want to see that they get treatment, and in this group of pts, that takes a larger IV I believe.)

Anyway, my very long winded reply is meant to show that it's spirit that I cherish in a partner, the desire to show up on scene and actually use the tools available when we can, to be smarter tomorrow than we are today.

Ask questions, mention my mistakes, debate everything you feel educated enough to disagree with, volunteer to do things that scare you, be pt focused and I'll love you forever, regardless of your age.

Dwayne

[Dustdevil]

I absolutely have no problems with younger partners. If I did at my age, I would have nobody to partner with! But I have always judged people on their merits (and demerits), not on age, sex, race, height, or anything else so superficially insignificant. As you say, if they perform professionally and competently, and are pleasant to be around for 12 or more hours, then that's all I care about. I've had no more problems with the professionalism and competency of younger partners than I have with older partners. That said, I can't honestly say that I have worked with many under 21 people, since I have rarely worked for an agency that would hire them.

As for everyone starting small, this is not at all true. Many, many, many EMS personnel start their career as a paramedic, with a degree even, without ever spending a day on the street as an EMT. And in my thirty-five years of practice, they tend to become the best medics. There are some notable examples of these people on this forum.

EMS is serious business, not a hobby or a game to be figured out on the job. People's lives are at stake with every single decision or move you make. To start out with less than the best possible educational preparation is recklessly negligent, as far as I am concerned. Sure, everyone is in a hurry to hit the streets. But medicine isn't about you or what you want. It's about our patients and what they need and deserve.

So again, not everyone has to start small. Only those who think small will do that. I don't work with small thinkers. Which means I don't work with EMTs. I want a partner, not a helper. Does that mean I "belittle" anyone below me? Nope. I simply follow the hierarchy that is already established by the powers that be. I didn't make up the chain of command. I didn't put EMTs below Paramedics. It is what it is, and I have to live by it just like you do. If you go around blaming paramedics for recognising the limitations of your training, you're not going to get very far in this profession. Instead of making excuses for your inadequacies, you'd be much better off just working on moving up in the profession by getting more education. After all, it's not my fault you're not a paramedic, it's your fault. So don't run around the field with a chip on your shoulder about having to be "small" or "under" someone else. You are what you make of yourself. Nobody can make you what you are not.

And just FYI, once you're a paramedic, you're still going to be "under" somebody, who will probably be belittling you because they have a whopping six months seniority on you. It never ends, even after thirty-five years, so don't worry, you're not the only one getting picked on.

There you go; the very best inspiration, encouragement, and challenge you will ever receive in your career. Free of charge. If it helps you, then consider donating to EMT City. If not, I'm sorry, but I honestly tried.

Oh, and SPELL CHECK FTW.

Best of luck!

Edited April 24, 2010 by Dustdevil

[Richard B the EMT]

I am at an age, both within the job (37 years worth), and chronologically (Almost 56, couple more days at this posting), where most EMTs are younger. I used to BE the younger EMT, as I started out at age 19.

Now I mentor younger EMTs. You youngsters are reading me now, are you not? Us long-timers (I refuse, if possible, to say "old-timers, as I feel that to be demeaning) most times do want to help newcomers become decent EMTs and Paramedics.

[usmc_chris]

I have an interesting take on this. I have always been around young EMS providers. I started out in college-based vounteer EMS, where everybody was 18-23. With my current employer, at age 24, I'm above the median age range. I'm one of the younger Paramedics, but we have a lot of very young, inexperienced EMT's. I don't have an issue with most of them, but some of them have a bit of an attitude. For example, I worked with one of them a couple months ago (about a week before I took my Paramedic certification exam), who was too young to even drive, so in effect I was an "ambulance driver" for the day. We got sent on a call, categorized as ALS criteria, with no responding ALS unit. Our agency has a habit of sending BLS units on ALS criteria calls when we are busy, and instructed to "advise on ALS" rather than securing an ALS unit, whether it be a supervisor from our quarters, or, god forbid, actually requesting another agency to help us out. She took great offense that I wanted to assess the pt more thoroughly than she did. Her idea was to put the pt on the stretcher, go to the ambulance, and only then perform an assessment on the way to the hospital. She complained to me "the supervisors have told me I do just fine by myself, you're not a Paramedic yet, so don't think you can assess MY patient!" While I know I didn't have the "P" formally yet, it was as if the year and a half of education didn't matter. I know that I, for one, when I was a newer EMT, would greatly value a partner with more experience and more education. This is by no means a common problem at this company, but this is the kind of person I don't want to work with - regardless of their age or experience level. One who has too big of a chip on their shoulders to take advice or additional input from everybody. I worked with a basic the other day who likes to perform his own assessment, without getting in the way, even on clearly ALS criteria patients - I'm glad of this! Maybe he might catch something I somehow missed. Even if he finds the exact same thing I did, it gives him additional experience and confidence assessing patients.

Regardless of the age or experience level, I just want a partner who is confident in their own abilities, and also recognizes the limitations of their education - and more importantly seeks more. I know Paramedics who belittle basics for seeking more knowledge, for attending CME lectures, for reading articles, etc. This is exactly the wrong attitude! Age is not the issue - I know 50 year olds who act like 3 year olds, and some very young, very competent Paramedics with whom I would trust my life. As long as you take your job seriously, and seek to improve yourself, I have no issue working with you.

[Starlight]

Thanks for the input, Dwayne. That's the exact same spirit so many of my coworkers have had and it never ceases to amaze me. I only hope that someday I can be the same for someone else.

DustDevil, thank-you too for the input and advise. I did want to clarify several things though.

For some people EMT-B is a stepping stone, not what they are settling for. I do plan to begin medic school shortly. As you've basically already said, in an ideal world we would all be medics, but, unfortunately, this is not an ideal world.:/

I also wanted to say that I've never personally had a problem with a medic and I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder toward any.

Personally, I enjoy a good challenge and I also enjoy working with people who present a good challenge. I would not want to work under anybody who would accept anything less than my absolute best.

We had an instructor in our EMT class who was like that. She may not have been forthcoming with praise, she picked (and I mean picked) at the nitty-gritty details, and if you messed up you knew that a lecture was coming (loudly and in public!), but I knew that she was hard on me because she wanted to see me pass and she wanted me to be the best that I could be and I loved it because I knew that if she didn't comment on my work I had done it well.

I may like the tough bosses, but, that being said, I've watched it crush others. Some of my classmates couldn't stand it and, for their sake, I wished, not that she would have lowered the standard, but that she could have come across a little more gently with them and could have been more affirmative when they did do it right.

I believe that is the mark of a true teacher: to be in tune with their students and, while not lowering the standard, able to meet them on their level. We don't need preachers. We need teachers. (I just realized how that might come across. I don't know you and I am in no way inferring as to what kind of teacher you might be, simply what I believe is ideal.)

And I'll use spell check in the future. (This is not spell checked though, as spell check is not downloaded on this pc.) Bear with me please.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Starlight

[Starlight]

I didn't see Richard's or Chris' posts before I sent my last reply.

I may be new on here (I' ve been reading for a lot longer than I've been a member), but, yes, we're listening, Richard, and we appreciate it more than you know!

Yeah, I can definitely see how that would be frustrating, Chris. I appreciate the way you brought up the point of EMT's furthuring their own education. There may be a majority of incompetent EMT's and I'm not arguing that, but I know some Basics who are just downright good at what they do and they know their stuff. They've put the effort into it that they should and are constantly learning and, from what I've seen, other medics and flight nurses highly respect them.

[Dustdevil]

Excellent! And again, I wish you the very best!

I was only going on your observation that the atmosphere here at this forum seemed less than hospitable to you. I only want you to understand that this has nothing to do with disliking those with less education, or younger people, or volunteers, or firemen, or females, or anything else. To me, it is simply about wanting the very best for my patients. And to me, that means getting care from the very best qualified and educated personnel.

If you ever feel like the tone of this forum is against EMTs, it's not. In fact, encouraging you to immediately continue your education is the most valuable encouragement you could possibly get anywhere. And anyone who blows meaningless smoke up your arse about how great being just an EMT is is doing you and your career no favours.

Aim high. Think big. Be the best that you can be.

[DwayneEMTP]

...I also wanted to say that I've never personally had a problem with a medic...

Regarding your question, this may be the most important point made in this thread. We're fortunate at our service, which is small, to have a lot of training, eventually everyone works with everyone, and some very competent EMTs. There are a couple though that complain constantly about how arrogant the medics are, how they won't listen, etc. etc. We also have a few others that look at these basics with honest confusion. They can't really understand what they're talking about as they've never had these problems. I even talked to one of the basics a few days back that I like very much and he said, "Why do you suppose everyone is so mean to so and so?" I asked him, "are we mean to you?" He said, "I love all of the medics here!" I said, "We treat him exactly the way we treat you, his perspective is simply different. If I challenge you on a question, I can see your chest puff out and you attack it. The first time I did so with him he complained to management that I was difficult to work with. Same tone, same type of question, same attitude from me, he simply has a different perspective."

I think that I like your attitude and perspective a lot. That is why I, and many others, will be forced to attack every attitude, believe, and idea that we think is bad for your emotional or mental health or the caree path that you've chosen. And, if you come to develop even the tiniest bit of respect for me as a person or a medical provider, you will do the same for me. Try and remember, when the shit hits the fan, that it's because we're fans, and not the oposite, that we do so.

Great points from one of our newer members. Good to have you here man.

Dwayne