Medic Attacked in UK

[Lone Star]

In a lot of States, the penalty for laying your hands on ANY Emergency Personnel is 2 years in prison.

I don't think that 56 days in a local jail cell is going to make them 'bitter and resentful'. I personally don't think that what she recieved as 'punishment' was all that 'atrocious' to begin with; and there's no reason she shouldn't be expected to serve her time.

Back in the 70's, there was a television program called "Baretta". The one line from the opening theme sticks out, and comes to play here: "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQeVIJ8e_z8

People need to learn (obviously 'the hard way') that we're not 'the enemy' and that there are serious repercussions for smacking us around! This Milquetoast approach to meting out punishment for violent actions is NOT reinforcing this concept.

I really don't think that 180 hours of community service and $506.40 is an acceptable punishment. Her defense in this situation was that she was 'too drunk to know what she was doing', and I call 'Bullshit!'. If you get that 'out of control' when you're drinking, then you shouldn't be imbibing!

[Kiwiology]

Jail does make people angry, bitter and resentful and I have seen it first hand in my family.

While eight weeks in the local lockup with Elmur Fudd the Sheriff might not do it it still wont help. I do not condone what thier person did by any stretch of the immagination but surely one slip of behaviour does not mean it should follow her around for the rest of her life.

As Phil says, she has the chance to become a productive member of society as she is obvviously a smart cookie so why confine her to some minimum wage bottom of the barrel job where they either do not check criminal records or dont mind thier employees having convictions for assault? Would that not seem a little overzealous?

Good thing she didnt beat up a cop; otherwise she wouldnt find herself in court she'd have been taken out behind the station and had the shit beaten out of her. I know I know according to the Police Complaints Authority that doesnt happen.

[Dustdevil]

Kill her. Problem solved. Society is better for it.

Preach on, Brother Baretta!

[aussiephil]

Could someone who actually lives, or has lived, in England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales respond to this:

If someone in the US gets arrested, even a misdemeanor, there is record of it. Even the TV and movies say in the crime dramas, "Our suspect doesn't even have a parking ticket." I know, from reading and entertainment dramas, after sentence is served or fines paid, that one can petition the courts to expunge the record of the misdeed. Can such be done in England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales?

Richard,

the UK, Aussie & Kiwi system are all very similar. We do not have the felony or misdemenour system.

When a person goes to court, & I will use this case as an example, there are a number of punishments that can be imposed. Jail, as was issued in the first instance, is one option ranging down to a fine or suspended sentence. A judge has the opportunity to impose a sentence that will be automatically removed on completion of the punishment. The suspension of a sentence for a period of time means the person still has it hanging over them. As I said, any criminal record, expecially with violence can mean in our countries that you are excluded from many types of employment. To me, this was a good option, I think it would have more of the desired effect than 8 weeks in a lockup. It is when this type of sentence is used for the same people, who commit the same crimes repetedly that I object. Lets be clear, this was a first offence, I would say it will probably be her last.

[aussiephil]

In a lot of States, the penalty for laying your hands on ANY Emergency Personnel is 2 years in prison.

I can not agree with mandatory sentencing. Especially if it is a first offence.

I don't think that 56 days in a local jail cell is going to make them 'bitter and resentful'. I personally don't think that what she recieved as 'punishment' was all that 'atrocious' to begin with; and there's no reason she shouldn't be expected to serve her time.

Lone, many things can be shown in a different light in the way they are written. a tap on the arm with no intent at the time can be written down as a punch that was intended to cause harm. I would have no hesitation if this young woman had, in the past, had violent outbursts to seeing her locked up. But there is nothing reported & I stress again, we are making assumptions based on 2 newspaper reports. We all know how biased they can actually be.

Back in the 70's, there was a television program called "Baretta". The one line from the opening theme sticks out, and comes to play here: "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime."

But why does the time have to include jail. We talk about punishment fitting the crime. Well, shouldnt we tailor punishment to suit the offender? Is it not possible that we take into account as the judge described this young lady

previous good character, youth and "industrious nature"

& consider that the entire arrest, charging, time in a holding cell, as well as the court proceedings have already been a severe punishment on a previously law abiding woman? She has also had her name & picture plasted across the press in the UK, there is more of a punishment & shame is a greater punishment than the anonymity of a jail cell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQeVIJ8e_z8

People need to learn (obviously 'the hard way') that we're not 'the enemy' and that there are serious repercussions for smacking us around! This Milquetoast approach to meting out punishment for violent actions is NOT reinforcing this concept.

I couldnt agree more, but EMS workers also need to learn not to be cowboys. Respect is a 2 way street & some of the attitudes I have seen should put some of ours into the jail cell beside this woman. Oh wait, maybe we could give them a second chance & be lenient & warn them & make them learn a bit more so they become better at their jobs.

I really don't think that 180 hours of community service and $506.40 is an acceptable punishment. Her defense in this situation was that she was 'too drunk to know what she was doing', and I call 'Bullshit!'. If you get that 'out of control' when you're drinking, then you shouldn't be imbibing!

Lone, I actually wonder if it was all alcohol related. I have worked near Universities & we all know that at 20 people have had more than 1 night on the booze. It was described ab an act that was out of character for her, I would guess she has been drunk more than just this once. I dunno, maybe I could be wrong....

[Richard B the EMT]

I find fault with the "First Time Offender" defence. Can you imagine someone telling the judge, "it was the first and only time the defendant ever held a gun, and pulled the trigger; sorry the bullet fired hit and killed the 5 year old girl down the street"?

[aussiephil]

I find fault with the "First Time Offender" defence. Can you imagine someone telling the judge, "it was the first and only time the defendant ever held a gun, and pulled the trigger; sorry the bullet fired hit and killed the 5 year old girl down the street"?

Richard,

I did say that punishment must fit the crime. There was no gun in this instance, or any other weapon, lets not play what ifs but stay with the case at hand.

Phil

[Kiwiology]

Yet another example of why alcohol should be banned! It seems the UK has a simmilar problem to us (and I think Australia is not far behind) when it comes to young people getting absolutely distingustingly intoxicated and causing havoc on a Thursday, Friday and Saturdya night.

I would far rather deal with somebody who has a bit too much smack and needs some naloxone (not that we really have a smack problem here anymore after everyboedy got on free done) than a drunk who is falling all over themself yelling abuse and trying to take a swing at me.

Ask any UK Paramedic why so many of them get beat up and they will say "its alcohol related".

[Lone Star]

I can not agree with mandatory sentencing. Especially if it is a first offence.

What I find surprising about that entire argument? From all the information I could find, the following people only had ‘one offense’:

Martin Bryant

Theodore “Ted” Kaczynski

Theodore “Ted” Bundy

Walter Whitman

Wayne Williams

With the exception of Martin Bryant, each of the rest had also attended college, (whether or not they graduated is irrelevant). Each one had the opportunity to become ‘useful members of society'.

While in no way am I comparing this girl’s actions to those of the serial killers mentioned above; I am however using them to illustrate the point that just because this girl’s in college and has no ‘prior criminal history’ shouldn’t excuse her from having to face the consequences of her actions.

Lone, many things can be shown in a different light in the way they are written. a tap on the arm with no intent at the time can be written down as a punch that was intended to cause harm. I would have no hesitation if this young woman had, in the past, had violent outbursts to seeing her locked up. But there is nothing reported & I stress again, we are making assumptions based on 2 newspaper reports. We all know how biased they can actually be.

Ultimately she even ADMITTED that she attacked this EMS responder. She also tried to use the excuse that she’d been drinking heavily as a justification for her actions.

But why does the time have to include jail. We talk about punishment fitting the crime. Well, shouldnt we tailor punishment to suit the offender? Is it not possible that we take into account as the judge described this young lady & consider that the entire arrest, charging, time in a holding cell, as well as the court proceedings have already been a severe punishment on a previously law abiding woman? She has also had her name & picture plasted across the press in the UK, there is more of a punishment & shame is a greater punishment than the anonymity of a jail cell.

With that logic, I should just excuse the driver that wiped me out in November. After all, it was just an “Oh shit! Moment”. We won’t talk about the lasting effects of the injuries or the psychological impact this crash has had on me…. After all, the guy felt so bad about his actions, he even split town! (And he was never arrested or spent any time in jail over it)

While we're at it, we'll just let the first time drunk drivers go with a similar slap on the wrist if they didn't hurt anyone. After all, they might be 'productive members of society'; and it's not like they hurt anyone by driving drunk.....

I couldnt agree more, but EMS workers also need to learn not to be cowboys. Respect is a 2 way street & some of the attitudes I have seen should put some of ours into the jail cell beside this woman. Oh wait, maybe we could give them a second chance & be lenient & warn them & make them learn a bit more so they become better at their jobs.

The responder was a 20 year veteran of EMS, not some ‘rookie’ fresh out of school. Additionally, since when is rendering care the actions of someone with that ‘cowboy mentality’?

Lone, I actually wonder if it was all alcohol related. I have worked near Universities & we all know that at 20 people have had more than 1 night on the booze. It was described ab an act that was out of character for her, I would guess she has been drunk more than just this once. I dunno, maybe I could be wrong....

By the girl’s own admission she had been drinking heavily that night. Again, I state; if you can’t control your actions because of alcohol intake, then you need to steer clear of the bottle so you don’t have to worry about what you did ‘the night before’!

Just because this girl is a college student and it's her first offense, we should just give her a slap on the wrist and a pat on the top of the head before sending her on her way?

[aussiephil]

What I find surprising about that entire argument? From all the information I could find, the following people only had ‘one offense’:

Martin Bryant

Theodore “Ted” Kaczynski

Theodore “Ted” Bundy

Walter Whitman

Wayne Williams

With the exception of Martin Bryant, each of the rest had also attended college, (whether or not they graduated is irrelevant). Each one had the opportunity to become ‘useful members of society'.

Punishment to fit the crime

While in no way am I comparing this girl’s actions to those of the serial killers mentioned above; I am however using them to illustrate the point that just because this girl’s in college and has no ‘prior criminal history’ shouldn’t excuse her from having to face the consequences of her actions.

It is innapropriate to compare these people with this young woman. The comparison is not valid or relevant. The crimes committed by those listed above are horrendous. It should also be noted that while Martin Bryant may not have had a criminal record he did have a significant mental health history.

Ultimately she even ADMITTED that she attacked this EMS responder. She also tried to use the excuse that she’d been drinking heavily as a justification for her actions.

This is usually called defence stratergy. It is also an indication of remorse. Without knowing this younh lady, we cannot know which it is from the 2 newspaper reports.

With that logic, I should just excuse the driver that wiped me out in November. After all, it was just an “Oh shit! Moment”. We won’t talk about the lasting effects of the injuries or the psychological impact this crash has had on me…. After all, the guy felt so bad about his actions, he even split town! (And he was never arrested or spent any time in jail over it)

While we're at it, we'll just let the first time drunk drivers go with a similar slap on the wrist if they didn't hurt anyone. After all, they might be 'productive members of society'; and it's not like they hurt anyone by driving drunk.....

No, he shouldnt be excused. Here it is classed as negligent driving occasioning bodily harm & the case is dealt with in the courts. I think one thing that needs to be considered is intent. In the case of the assaulted medic, ee were not there to know all of the details, so we cannot determine her intent, or indeed her mental status. I think this hilights why we should, as a profession, fight single officer responses.

The responder was a 20 year veteran of EMS, not some ‘rookie’ fresh out of school. Additionally, since when is rendering care the actions of someone with that ‘cowboy mentality’?

My comment was not directed at her, it was directed at too many people in our industry who have a uniform importance mentality, demand respect but dont give any in return. It was a slur at those who will not do their job properly. The sloppy operators, should we send them to jail as well? No, lets re-educate them, lets look at why they are like they are, see if we can improve & performance manage them to be better officers.

By the girl’s own admission she had been drinking heavily that night. Again, I state; if you can’t control your actions because of alcohol intake, then you need to steer clear of the bottle so you don’t have to worry about what you did ‘the night before’!

Just because this girl is a college student and it's her first offense, we should just give her a slap on the wrist and a pat on the top of the head before sending her on her way?

Again I will ask the question, is this the first time she has had alcohol or been drunk? I doubt it. We see it here with people who can drink anything & never have a problem, but as soon as they touch rum, we have issues. Does this mean we should go back to the days of prohibition? Or force people to have a personal liquor licence to enable them to consume alcohol?

Prohibition didnt work, but, & I can only speak for what we see here, the introduction of more & more premixed high alcohol drinks that are sickly sweet has not helped. Maybe tighter regulation on these is the answer, I dont know. This woman made a mistake, poor judgement. reference to guns, serial killers does not help. Lets look at it for what it is. Common Assault. No it is not acceptable behaviour. Is she likely to do it again? I doubt it. Will the community & tax payer benefit from her spending 8 weeks in a prison at a financial cost to the community or will she be better to serve her sentence at a greater personal cost?