Medic Attacked in UK

[Kiwiology]

...did have a significant mental health history.

I seem to function OK with one

Does this mean we should go back to the days of prohibition? Or force people to have a personal liquor licence to enable them to consume alcohol?

You would have my vote mate. How many pub fights have you gone to where the onlookers and/or patient are shouting abuse at you or shaping up at the Ambulance Officers? Went to a pub fight the other weekend where the guy had gotten a hiding for what the bouncer said was nothing, sime wanker who was pissed took him the wrong way and gave him a smack in the head. I am not sure what has changed in the last twenty odd years but I think something has radically shifted to where people are not only drinking more and more but probably stronger beverages and the amount of shit it causes goes up and up and up. Even the traditional pub fight of the day has changed, back in the day you would get a smack in the head and it'd be over; now not only do you get a smack in the head you get two, three or heck even five guys beating you to the ground then stomping on your head or shanking you. The two are not good in combination, and more often than not, are found in combination.

And yes ... we get single Officer responders going to these jobs, oh the Police are all busy they say .... sit down the road and wait for a half hour ....

[Lone Star]

It is innapropriate to compare these people with this young woman. The comparison is not valid or relevant. The crimes committed by those listed above are horrendous. It should also be noted that while Martin Bryant may not have had a criminal record he did have a significant mental health history.

The only comparison I intended to make was that with the exception of Bryant, all had gone to college at some point (just like this girl did). Inclusive of Bryant, none of them had a prior criminal record (just like the girl). However, you advocate based on those two criteria, that we just mark this down to 'lesson learned' based on the stress and 'hardship' induced by her arrest, confinement in a holding cell and having charges leveled and having to attend her criminal court date.

This is usually called defence stratergy. It is also an indication of remorse. Without knowing this younh lady, we cannot know which it is from the 2 newspaper reports.

So "I was too drunk to know what I was doing" is a justifiable defense strategy?

No, he shouldnt be excused. Here it is classed as negligent driving occasioning bodily harm & the case is dealt with in the courts. I think one thing that needs to be considered is intent. In the case of the assaulted medic, ee were not there to know all of the details, so we cannot determine her intent, or indeed her mental status. I think this hilights why we should, as a profession, fight single officer responses.

Here, what that young lady did is called 'Assault with intent to cause bodily harm'. In some areas, another charge of "Assault on public safety personnel". I'm sorry, but you don't beat someone and rip their hair out of their scalp and get to claim 'oopsie!' after you get sentenced in court. There is only one reason you'd lay your hands on someone in this manner, and that is to hurt them. Intent was proven by her actions. As far as the driver that wiped me out, his 'defense' was "I didn't see the motorcycle", when witnesses say I was clearly visible, and the van appeared to be trying to beat me across the intersection (I had the right of way). Hell, while we're at it, since we seem so intent on patting these little darlings on the head; why not make it MY fault....after all, I WAS on a motorcycle that night!

My comment was not directed at her, it was directed at too many people in our industry who have a uniform importance mentality, demand respect but dont give any in return. It was a slur at those who will not do their job properly. The sloppy operators, should we send them to jail as well? No, lets re-educate them, lets look at why they are like they are, see if we can improve & performance manage them to be better officers.

And by what indication/information are you basing this on? The two articles I read didn't say anything about the EMT doing anything other than trying to render aid. What has you convinced that the EMT did anything 'disrespectful'?

Again I will ask the question, is this the first time she has had alcohol or been drunk? I doubt it. We see it here with people who can drink anything & never have a problem, but as soon as they touch rum, we have issues. Does this mean we should go back to the days of prohibition? Or force people to have a personal liquor licence to enable them to consume alcohol?

Whether or not this is her 'first time being drunk' is irrelevant. The whole issue at hand is the simple fact that she admitted her guilt in court and was handed an appropriate sentence. The Crown Court even admitted that they could see WHY the lower court sentenced her as they did. They went further to say that she turned herself into a 'drunken animal'

Prohibition didnt work, but, & I can only speak for what we see here, the introduction of more & more premixed high alcohol drinks that are sickly sweet has not helped. Maybe tighter regulation on these is the answer, I dont know. This woman made a mistake, poor judgement. reference to guns, serial killers does not help. Lets look at it for what it is. Common Assault. No it is not acceptable behaviour. Is she likely to do it again? I doubt it. Will the community & tax payer benefit from her spending 8 weeks in a prison at a financial cost to the community or will she be better to serve her sentence at a greater personal cost?

What happened to personal responsibility for their actions? Just because they make the 'sickly sweet high alcohol drinks' doesn't mean that she HAS to consume them to excess.

The point hand is she broke the law, and she was sentenced. What kind of message does this send the next person that decides to take a swing at an EMT/Medic that's doing their job? Shed a few tears, offer some weak apology and you'll get away with it! That's clearly NOT the message we want to endorse sending to the public.

In Oz, what type of penalty would I get for walking up to a cop and punching them in the mouth? What about a Firefighter? Are those professions more important than EMS? Shouldn't the penalty for assulting one of US be the same as for assaulting one of them?

Yeah, she screwed the pooch on this one, and she needs to take the medicine for her actions. As far as 'would the taxpayer benefit'....would they be harmed for making the little darling spend a whopping 56 days in a cage for her actions? Ultimately, the choice is clear....if you don't want to go to jail for smacking an EMS provider....DON'T smack the EMS provider.....bottom line!

[Dustdevil]

Punishment to fit the crime

Agreed. But the fitting punishment for any violent crime should be death on first conviction. Period.

[CBEMT]

Yet another example of why alcohol should be banned!

We tried that already, mate. As I recall from history class, it didn't work out too well. About as well as the current "war on drugs," in fact. It did work better than DC and Chicago's ban on handguns though....

[aussiephil]

Lone,

I think our differences of opinion will always be there, & neither of us will give. I respect your opinion, as I respect you, but I think we are going around in circles on this one.

Dust, we know you want death for all. Only problem there is we will all end up unemployed, commit crimes & be killed ourselves.

CBEMT, I suggest you actually read what I wrote, I have made it easy & put it in here for you to reread. I have bolded the important bits.

Does this mean we should go back to the days of prohibition? Or force people to have a personal liquor licence to enable them to consume alcohol?

Prohibition didnt work, but, & I can only speak for what we see here, the introduction of more & more premixed high alcohol drinks that are sickly sweet has not helped. Maybe tighter regulation on these is the answer, I dont know. This woman made a mistake, poor judgement. reference to guns, serial killers does not help. Lets look at it for what it is. Common Assault. No it is not acceptable behaviour. Is she likely to do it again? I doubt it. Will the community & tax payer benefit from her spending 8 weeks in a prison at a financial cost to the community or will she be better to serve her sentence at a greater personal cost?

[Lone Star]

Lone,

I think our differences of opinion will always be there, & neither of us will give. I respect your opinion, as I respect you, but I think we are going around in circles on this one.

Phil,

I suspect you're right on this. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think either of us were 'wrong' in our positions, so neither will have to concede defeat.

The respect is mutual, and I thank you for a passionate, civil debate.

LS

[CBEMT]

CBEMT, I suggest you actually read what I wrote, I have made it easy & put it in here for you to reread.

And if I was quoting YOU, that would matter.

I suggest you actually read what I wrote, I have made it easy & put it in here for you to reread.

Smartass.

Yet another example of why alcohol should be banned!

Edited May 24, 2010 by CBEMT

[OCJ]

Hey Guys,

I'm replying because someone asked for someone from the UK to answer. I work as part of a Voluntary Aid Society in the UK, and we cover some EMS calls, whilst the government agencies (ambulance trusts) cover the majority.

In reply to various questions about UK legal systems and so on, the girl in this case committed a violent act, and because she was convicted, that will remain on her criminal record. In the UK, arrest records are only available to the police and security services, so unless convicted, a person doesn't gain a criminal record. Criminal records are considered current for 7 years after an offence, after which the convict no longer has to declare them, however if a former convict applies for certain jobs, they will be required to consent to a Criminal Records Bureau(CRB) check, which come in two types. A standard CRB will disclose all crimes committed in the last 7 years, and may include more serious crimes if they fit certain criteria. For jobs which involve positions of particular trust, working with children or vulnerable adults etc (such as EMS work), an enhanced CRB is done, and this shows whether an individual is included on the various registers of criminals, such as those concerned with crimes against vulnerable persons.

Crimes against vulnerable person sounds like it's a sex offenders register, but it in fact includes for example carers convicted of stealing money from their charges and many other types of criminal. People who appear on these lists will be sent a CRB Enhanced disclosure which shows this, and a copy is also sent to their current employer, who can make an informed descision. Usually the person won't be employed, but sometimes their crime will be considered minor, and instead of refusing employment, adjustments to what they do will be made.

The girl in this story who attacked a paramedic successfully appealed against only the sentence length, having originally pled guilty. She will have this criminal record permanently, and details of it will be available to most employers for 7 years. Because it was a violent offence, it will be available to certain employers permanently.

Finally in reply to the comment about an animosity towards EMS in the UK, I assure you that stories about refusing to respond whilst on lunch etc are all greatly exagerrated. EMS employees frequently complain about such things, but I have yet to meet an Ambulance Worker who doesn't work hard and with dedication for their patients. As was said earlier, you can't necessarily believe the papers and media on anything! There is no general animosity against EMS staff themselves, but there is frequently animosity against the government and governing bodies for the performance of EMS. Stories about overly long response times are reasonably frequent, but I've not known people to blame them on the crews themselves. It's more of a funding thing, and in actual fact, the vast majority of calls are answered within their alloted times (8mins for urgent and 19mins for less urgent).

Incidents of violence against crews are becoming more frequent (or at least more covered in the press), but almost all of these have to do with our UK drinking culture, which is admittedly pretty bad. Whilst most people drink fairly sensibly, the small minority who don't can cause a lot of mayhem in a short space of time. Nearly all violence against clinicians is to do with drink or drugs.

Really long reply, but I hope it helps clarify some points, and disspell some stereotypes that are wrong!

Edited May 24, 2010 by OCJ

[Dustdevil]

Dust, we know you want death for all. Only problem there is we will all end up unemployed, commit crimes & be killed ourselves.

I think not. I've never committed a violent crime, even while unemployed, and I am more than twice this tarts age.

[HellsBells]

Yet another example of why alcohol should be banned! It seems the UK has a simmilar problem to us (and I think Australia is not far behind) when it comes to young people getting absolutely distingustingly intoxicated and causing havoc on a Thursday, Friday and Saturdya night.

I would far rather deal with somebody who has a bit too much smack and needs some naloxone (not that we really have a smack problem here anymore after everyboedy got on free done) than a drunk who is falling all over themself yelling abuse and trying to take a swing at me.

Ask any UK Paramedic why so many of them get beat up and they will say "its alcohol related".

It seems like this is more of a cultural problem, as the citizens of Alberta drink copious amounts of booze, both beer and "sickly sweet" rum, and I can think of maybe 1 incident in the last 5 years where EMS was attacked by revelers at a pub or nightclub in this province.

Edited May 24, 2010 by HellsBells