Just Plain Ruff Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 No the framers did not intend for any of it to be the way it is now...it is only due to the "extremism" of elected officials over the years that we have reshaped our society to conform/bend to certain christian influences. God in pledge and on money was not until the 1950s...so why are we shifting that way? Slowly but surely if we allow it to remain unchecked, we would be neck deep in a very similar society but ours would bow to christ instead of allah. So AK let me ask you this. I am not asking to start an argument so let me be clear on that. You have very eloquently pointed out that you are forced to deal with Christianity being forced on to you every day. What are you doing in your actions to turn the tide so to speak? If this is not an appropriate discussion for the thread please let's discuss this via pm's or better yet a Beer Summit somewhere in orlando, you know I'm sort of living in the Orlando area through the end of the year. I'm always open to hear a opposing from my view point viewpoint if that makes sense. I do believe that the framers did have a certain form of society in mind after the Declaration and the constitution but I do agree that it has become something that they truly would not be happy about now. Every one of us on this board has strong opinions on this matter, from religion to government. That's why the old adage is tru - don't talk about politics, religion or money in friendly conversation.
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 What are you doing in your actions to turn the tide so to speak? Ironically, most atheists, humanists, secular people's simply turn the other cheek. We do not preach, we do not knock on doors, we do not start wars or hand out unwanted propaganda. There is no pressing need to convert, convince or alter one's opinions. (Speaking real life day to day, not internet boards) If someone wishes to engage in one on one conversation and agree to listen to my opinions as much as they wish to express theirs to me, then I am all for it. I can converse with out threatening, cursing or getting angry and walking away. The latter happened on more than one occasion from the other side. It is difficult to argue, defend or debate an irrational belief...when ultimately it ends with the response of "I have faith and thats all that matters" and "you will burn in hell if you do not see the light", then there is very little left to say as you simply can not argue with that, nor do I care to most times. The bottom line is usually I truly do not care what you believe in as long as you do not impede on my life which includes my circle of friends and family. If you are in a position of authority, such as a teacher and then you let your words or actions influence my children's lives, then I have a problem. So what am I doing to "thwart" all this meddling. Really there is not much I can do but I do stay informed and I do inform others when they express interest. I am a member of the Atheist Alliance, the Secular Student Organization, various Humanist groups and the ACLU and we all petition the government on many occasions. There have also been many successes due to our government involvement. Simply go to any of those group websites to read about it. I suspect you won't and not calling you out but in my experience, very few "of the faith" will ever take the time or develop enough interest to explore counter opinions. It is much easier and more comfortable to simply ignore them all and keep on keeping on in one's daily routine.
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I am a member of the Atheist Alliance, the Secular Student Organization, various Humanist groups and the ACLU and we all petition the government on many occasions. There have also been many successes due to our government involvement. Simply go to any of those group websites to read about it. I suspect you won't and not calling you out but in my experience, very few "of the faith" will ever take the time or develop enough interest to explore counter opinions. It is much easier and more comfortable to simply ignore them all and keep on keeping on in one's daily routine. Ironically (sic) AK, I have done exactly what you said in the past. I actually took several college level courses that dealth with those types of groups, not from a negative viewpoint because the instructor was a ACLU attorney and someone pretty high up in the KC MO ACLU "Dick Kurtenbach" I hope I spelled his name right. I spent time at a secular student organization (during college in 1990 -1992). I do read the other points of view, I am not offended or angry at you suspecting I won't. I understand your experience but on the other hand I suspect that many of the Atheist alliance and secular student organizations won't go to the National site of the Baptist faith or the Catholic faith not because they will never take the time to develop the interest but it is much easier and comfortable to simply ignore them all and keep on keeping on. If you get my thought process too. So how bout that beer. I probably can't give you more of why I believe what I believe because I just believe it but you know from our past interactions that I am willing to listen and I do not resort to name calling, negative retort and all that.
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I do read the other points of view, I am not offended or angry at you suspecting I won't. I understand your experience but on the other hand I suspect that many of the Atheist alliance and secular student organizations won't go to the National site of the Baptist faith or the Catholic faith not because they will never take the time to develop the interest but it is much easier and comfortable to simply ignore them all and keep on keeping on. If you get my thought process too. Good point but consider this...in my little bubble, very few people of the same thought processes as myself started out that way. We all came from religious backgrounds and it was through our own interests, our own desires to learn more, and a slew of other reasons that we came to believe or know what we do. It is because we have those past experiences that we are able to make an intelligent and informed comparison. As for visiting those places, most have already been there previously, but would you return to a place where you will be pressured at every turn once they find out what your beliefs are or aren't? When we do not seek to convert, or preach, or mind boggle...what purpose would it serve to be at those places other than stirring up shit (there are those who do enjoy that on both sides of the fence).
HERBIE1 Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 No the framers did not intend for any of it to be the way it is now...it is only due to the "extremism" of elected officials over the years that we have reshaped our society to conform/bend to certain christian influences. God in pledge and on money was not until the 1950s...so why are we shifting that way? Slowly but surely if we allow it to remain unchecked, we would be neck deep in a very similar society but ours would bow to christ instead of allah. Actually, "In God We trust" first appeared on coins during the Civil War, but you are correct, it did not become adopted as our national motto, nor did God appear in the pledge until the 1950's. Bending to influences is not the same as accepting that the founding fathers DID believe in some deity and that is the frame of reference they used when drafting the documents our society is based on. Obviously things have become hijacked by various groups to suit their own agendas, but such is the way of politics. Because these original documents are fairly vague in many areas, they are by design open to some interpretation- that is what the USSC is all about. Clearly, one of the dangers of "interpretation" is that we stray from what our founders envisioned. Our whole society was built on the notion of freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Our Declaration of Independence cites in the first paragraph the justification for dissolving the ties that bound us to England and assume the laws of Nature and "God's nature" as well as the fact men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights". Is this an endorsement of religion? No, but it is also NOT a denial that a deity exists, nor is it a condemnation of those who believe in one. It is simply a tacit admission the founders believed in SOME type of higher power. I'm sure you are aware that the USSC ruled that the national motto is not an endorsement of any one religion, but does assume we were established under the belief of some "Supreme Being". They also ruled that such a motto does not mandate or even propose any type of state church. Everyone is entitled to their belief system, but you simply cannot deny the principles this country was founded on. As an atheist, you are entitled to your beliefs, but you also cannot dismiss our history, which IS tied to some form of deism.
JPINFV Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I will not do a quid pro quo here with examples of Muslim terror around the globe. Pick up any newspaper and see what has happened in the last 6 months in Gaza or Africa. The BIG difference between the Bible and the Koran and Sharia law (Which this NYC Iman is trying to expand here) is if you do not agree with the bible, NOBODY is forcing you to accept it. Sharia law dictates your entire life, and failure to comply results in severe penalties in the here and now, not in the afterlife. The bible is filled with parables but few accept it verbatum. The ones who do take the bible literally are seen to be extreme, radical nut jobs and nobody takes them seriously. Same with the radical Muslims, except now we are not only supposed to be tolerant of them, but allow them to build a monument to their intolerance 2 blocks from Ground zero. No way. A YMMA is no more a monument than a YMCA. No one is going to force anyone to accept Sharia law here. This isn't Saudi Arabia, regardless of how much people on the anti-side would like it to be. Plenty of people take the bible literally, they're just normally very selective of what parts they take literally (i.e. homosexuality is a favorite). Why are all who take the bible literally, "are seen to be extreme, radical nut jobs and nobody takes them seriously" however all Muslims apparently take the Koran literally unless proven otherwise?
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 Just a little humor... Also a great article addressing freedom from religion versus freedom of religion http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstate/a/FreedomFrom.htm
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 Just a little humor... Also a great article addressing freedom from religion versus freedom of religion http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstate/a/FreedomFrom.htm That was a good overall read. Good background piece. I am all for keeping the government out of religion. They can't manage money, programs and many other things so would their getting involved in religion more than they are now be a good thing. I THINK NOT. tongue in cheek but being serious here. I do believe a president does have the right to endorse his religion but when he begins to force that religion on others is where the line needs to be drawn. I do not believe that anyone has the right to shove or force their religion upon someone else. My son knows I'm religious. I have taught him in his 7 years of life that he is free to believe however he wants to believe. For right now I know he is only mimicking me and reflecting my religious views but when he turns 12 or 15 or 18 and he goes a different way, will I be disappointed, probably. Will I be mad? nope. I have tried to instill in him the ability to chose and make his own decisions on everything. My job is to give him all the options and help him make the right decision. It may not be the decision I like or want him to make but if he gives me good reasons why he believes the way he does, then who am I to force him to change his mind or mindset. AK I know you have done the same with your kids.
Richard B the EMT Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 From website http://www.usconstit.../const.html#Am1 <a name=Amends">The Amendments Note The following are the Amendments to the Constitution. The first ten Amendments collectively are commonly known as the Bill of Rights. History Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. OK, the Governments of the USA, the State of, and the City of New York, are restricted in having a "State Religion". They are similarly restricted in disfavoring any religion. The NIMBY crowd would declare otherwise, but are themselves protected by free expression/speech. The Judeo/Christian bibles state, in "The Ten Commandments", "Thou Shall Not Kill" I believe I have also read variations of that line in Hindu religious books, and suspect they might have the line in Buddhism. YET , How many wars, crusades, jihads, have been fought, all in "God's" name? How may died? How many will die?
Richard B the EMT Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 The refrain is, "When will they ever learn?" I wonder if humankind ever will.
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