daedalus Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Wrong only if it is assumed that socioeconomic and political factors were meant to say that they were all poor and uneducated. JPINFV brought up a name that admitted to doing what he did for socioeconomic and political factors: Ted Kacynski (aka "UNIBOMBER"). Kacynski was a mathematical genius and a college professor. He claims that the consumer direction of the West brought him to the edge. I bring this up because there are several political and socioeconomic concerns that a member of a Middle Eastern community would be concerned about. Not just the idea of being poor, but the idea that leaches from the West are taking advantage of your circumstances. Shady political relations and economic concerns between the West and the Middle East have been going on for some time, and it is not all based on religious feuds (though much of it is believed to be). Regarding the psychological development of a human being: in an environment where everyone is claiming that there is a definitive "evil" in this world (America), indoctrination will follow. Indoctrination of any type may lead to radical behavior, as we have seen in American abortion clinic bombings in recent days; or as we have read about in the tales regarding the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition; even the lynchings of blacks in the post-war south. Even slavery in general! Educated, religious, hard working Americans... who just happened to own slaves and believed that blacks were not worthy of being treated as humans. All this right in our own back yard... now I am ranting... Having a PhD does not necessarily make one more aware and open to the vast perspectives of the human species. It often just makes them more efficient when it comes to achieving their emotionally driven goals. For the record. I don't think America is evil. I also don't think that Islam promotes violence unless one chooses to interpret it that way. Build the mosque. It's not their fault. By refusing to allow an Islamic house of worship to be located at or near ground zero, we will be acknowledging that it was Islam that flew those planes, not a group of men that were in no way officially representing the Islamic people throughout the world, even if they (the hijackers) thought they were. What does the unibomber have to do with religious extremism turned jihad? Different motives and different people, not the same. The 9/11 plotters were soley motivated to drive those planes into the towers because of their beliefs, beliefs about what happens after we die, and that is a dangerous thing. It is possible to be so educated that one could engineer a intercontinental missle, yet still believe that dying in the name of Allah guarantees you and 70 family members admittance to eternal life in Paradise. By the way, how would you interpret the Koran? What parts do you leave out and which do you tenants will you subscribe to? I don't think it's a matter of interpretation because the koran is crystal clear that fighting in the name of Allah and killing infidels is a very god thing. Just as the bible commands you to stone you daughter to death (in no uncertain terms i might add)if she has sex before marriage. Religious moderates who choose to Ignore these passages do so because of secular influences on their lives, secular values. Yahweh never told us it was ok to stop killing gays, but most of us don't.
Just Plain Ruff Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I think this mosque is a bad idea. That's all I'll say about it but the conspiracy theorist in me can't help but wonder what other purposes this serves? Will it be a gathering place where people who hate america will gather and work on their nefarious deeds and future deeds? Or will it be a place that will turn against the radical islamists and do exactly what they say they intend which is to memorialize and honor those who died? My only question is who will they be honoring? The terrorists or the innocent citizens who died in the plane's aftermath. Only time will tell but I can say this, We reap what we sow.
HERBIE1 Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 What does the unibomber have to do with religious extremism turned jihad? Different motives and different people, not the same. The 9/11 plotters were soley motivated to drive those planes into the towers because of their beliefs, beliefs about what happens after we die, and that is a dangerous thing. It is possible to be so educated that one could engineer a intercontinental missle, yet still believe that dying in the name of Allah guarantees you and 70 family members admittance to eternal life in Paradise. By the way, how would you interpret the Koran? What parts do you leave out and which do you tenants will you subscribe to? I don't think it's a matter of interpretation because the koran is crystal clear that fighting in the name of Allah and killing infidels is a very god thing. Just as the bible commands you to stone you daughter to death (in no uncertain terms i might add)if she has sex before marriage. Religious moderates who choose to Ignore these passages do so because of secular influences on their lives, secular values. Yahweh never told us it was ok to stop killing gays, but most of us don't. Actually, ideas such as these do not appear in the original text of the Koran. Radical extremists cite a different, bastardized version of the Koran that condones and justifies their extreme viewpoints.
Lone Star Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Ted Kacynski, Tim McVeigh, and the abortion clinic bombers all send their regards. Also, there was a pretty lengthy period when the Christians were the world's terrorists. It doesn't make terrorism right, but neither does claiming that any one religion is someone the religion of terror. The references to Ted Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh are not only irrelevant, but only serve to inflame the emotions of those involved in this discussion. The actions of Kaczynski were ideological, not religiously motivated. He was protesting technology and development. The actions of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not religiously motivated either. They blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in a plitical protest of the government's handling of the incidents at Ruby Ridge, ID; and the standoff in Waco, TX. We haven't heard of any other places of worship being built in the vicinity of Ground Zero, and to be completly honest; the building of an Islamic mosque so close to that area only serves to inflame the passions of all Americans. While not all Muslims are guilty of the atrocities that occurred on 9/11, it IS however the actions of a few radical Muslims that killed so many innocent people for nothing more than trying to cripple the greatest country in the world. To allow the construction of this mosque appears to be nothing more than rubbing salt in a wound that I doubt will ever fully heal. It's almost as if the Islamic religion is intentionally antagonizing American citizens. I don't think that anyone that's taken part in this discussion has implied, said or even hinted that those victims that were non-Christian are any less relevant than those Christians that were killed. I personally don't care if you choose to believe in God, Yaweh, Buddha, Allah or any other 'supreme deity', or whether you choose not to acknowledge a 'supreme entity' at all. If your belief system brings you happiness, then more power to you! Tolerance is mutual. By the actions of some of the Islamic nation, they have proven that tolerance is not something they are willing to give. As I've stated before, due to the actions of some religious zealots, Ground Zero has become a sort of 'holy ground'. To build a mosque near by is to thumb your nose at the victims and families that lost friends and relatives in that tragedy. It's in poor form, and then to DEMAND tolerance is just adding insult to injury. 2
daedalus Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) Actually, ideas such as these do not appear in the original text of the Koran. Radical extremists cite a different, bastardized version of the Koran that condones and justifies their extreme viewpoints. We could argue that there is no longer any original holy book. The bible, Koran have been altered so many times to fit the agenda of various groups that it really doesn't matter anymore. The fundamentalist Muslims really, truleybbelieve that the way we live in America represents human kind thumbing our collective nose at god, and that their own children's eternal salvation actually is in peril because of it. This is a recipe for disaster, and it seems like t he only people who can be honest about this in our country are conservatives, which is a shame because liberals could add a. Lot of wisdom and a different perspective to the problem if they would take their heads out of their politically correct rectums. I really am aiming not to offend anyone on the forum with my posts, btw. I only hope for honest debate and conversation. Her eis some interesting video from TED Edited June 7, 2010 by daedalus
Quakefire Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I do believe its time to ban Christianity on the same basis that some believe Islam is a "dangerous" religion. Look at all the damage it has done, the dark ages, the KKK. Its easy to look at something foreign to you and pick out something to hate while ignoring the same aspects of your own religion. There are extremists everywhere doesnt matter what book they read
Just Plain Ruff Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I do believe its time to ban Christianity on the same basis that some believe Islam is a "dangerous" religion. Look at all the damage it has done, the dark ages, the KKK. Its easy to look at something foreign to you and pick out something to hate while ignoring the same aspects of your own religion. There are extremists everywhere doesnt matter what book they read You can't ban a religion any more than you can ban bad behavior of those who follow that religion. If you are going to ban christianity you have to ban all religions. Plus, no one is saying to ban any religion on this thread. Some are saying to keep the mosque out of the area of ground zero. I for one think if the mosque would be used to counter the negative opinion of all those who hate Islam then this would be a VERY good thing but I have my true doubts that this will happen. The knee jerk reaction is to ban the religion when it's a select group of fanatics in any religion that do what they do. I for one see a lot of good that organized religion does but you get that one bad apple or bad orchard and everyone guilty by association.
aussiephil Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 As I recall, Christians are still compelled to follow the teachings of the Old Testament. Religious moderation provides the cover for religious extremism, as it provides cover for cultural relativism. daedalus, I am addressing you because of your comments, however this is for all who want to drag the bible into this. The Bible is a historical document. It was written partly from dreams, partly from eyewitness accounts, partly plagerised (generally accepted of the gospels). There are also more books of the bible that are not included. Many of the laws that were taught in the Old Testement are still enforced in some countries. An eye for an eye is the first that comes to mind. Many of our laws are based on the 10 Commandments. However, what you need to consider is that the bible, as a document, was written for the Israelite people 2000+ years ago. Fundamentalist christians believe, for example, that God created the world in 7 literal days. Are they right or wrong? The Bible says that when Noah built the Ark it rained for 40 days & 40 nights, but Noah lived to be hundreds of years old, so how long did it rain for? (At the time of Christ it is believed the average lifespan was 30-40 for a male). Literal interperitations are at your peril. In the New Testament Jesus endorsed many of the Old Testament laws, as well as explaining some & modifying others to suit. The problem we have now is that after 2000 years, there have been many 'scholars' who have added their twists & interperetations that have been accepted as fact. A Devils advocate question is to ask why is Christianity the right religion to follow. It is also right not to label all muslims as terrorists, as it is not right to say all christians are good, loving, wholesome people.(Jim & Tammy Bakker come to mind, although he loved prostitutes & was just trying to spread the gospel to them ) This proposal is a couple of blocks from the site. I don't see the problem. Would the same be said if it was a Pentecostal church that wanted to build right next door, how about a Hindu temple, or even the Church of Scientology? I am sure those religions had representatives who lost their lives that day as well. I believe there should be a non denominational chapel for people of all religions built on or near the site for those who survived & their families, as well as the families of those who lost loved ones to reflect of what happenned & to move forward. Quakefire to ban any religion will have the samme effect as trying to ban alcohol, ask the communists. Many of the churches had more sucess in increasing membership in those countries that banned their right to worship than anywhere else. Prohibition doesnt work. What happened on that fateful day was the result of extremists. Extreemists who had been brainwashed. What does not get reported is the fact that there are millions of muslims in the world who seek peace. They do not condone terrorism. The do not condone the actions of the extreemists. Acceptance is the key. Is this being built in the wrong place. Who knows. I will ask though, if you think it is, then how far away is an acceptable distance & should that apply to all churches?
daedalus Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 daedalus, I am addressing you because of your comments, however this is for all who want to drag the bible into this. The Bible is a historical document. It was written partly from dreams, partly from eyewitness accounts, partly plagerised (generally accepted of the gospels). There are also more books of the bible that are not included. Many of the laws that were taught in the Old Testement are still enforced in some countries. An eye for an eye is the first that comes to mind. Many of our laws are based on the 10 Commandments. However, what you need to consider is that the bible, as a document, was written for the Israelite people 2000+ years ago. Fundamentalist christians believe, for example, that God created the world in 7 literal days. Are they right or wrong? The Bible says that when Noah built the Ark it rained for 40 days & 40 nights, but Noah lived to be hundreds of years old, so how long did it rain for? (At the time of Christ it is believed the average lifespan was 30-40 for a male). Literal interperitations are at your peril. In the New Testament Jesus endorsed many of the Old Testament laws, as well as explaining some & modifying others to suit. The problem we have now is that after 2000 years, there have been many 'scholars' who have added their twists & interperetations that have been accepted as fact. A Devils advocate question is to ask why is Christianity the right religion to follow. It is also right not to label all muslims as terrorists, as it is not right to say all christians are good, loving, wholesome people.(Jim & Tammy Bakker come to mind, although he loved prostitutes & was just trying to spread the gospel to them ) This proposal is a couple of blocks from the site. I don't see the problem. Would the same be said if it was a Pentecostal church that wanted to build right next door, how about a Hindu temple, or even the Church of Scientology? I am sure those religions had representatives who lost their lives that day as well. I believe there should be a non denominational chapel for people of all religions built on or near the site for those who survived & their families, as well as the families of those who lost loved ones to reflect of what happenned & to move forward. Quakefire to ban any religion will have the samme effect as trying to ban alcohol, ask the communists. Many of the churches had more sucess in increasing membership in those countries that banned their right to worship than anywhere else. Prohibition doesnt work. What happened on that fateful day was the result of extremists. Extreemists who had been brainwashed. What does not get reported is the fact that there are millions of muslims in the world who seek peace. They do not condone terrorism. The do not condone the actions of the extreemists. Acceptance is the key. Is this being built in the wrong place. Who knows. I will ask though, if you think it is, then how far away is an acceptable distance & should that apply to all churches? Good post. You have to remember that more then 40% of Americans actually reject Darwinian evolution in favor of intelligent design (no, these are not the religious folks who acknowledge natural selection but believe in a guiding hand. These folks reject all forms of evolution). More then 45% of Americans literally believe that the earth is only 5,000 years old. 60% of American Christians believe that the bible is the literal word of God. How is that for some taking the bible at its literal face value? For the complete set of these mind blowing statistics and respective background on the polls I would direct all of you to the footnotes in (book) The God Delusion (Dawkins). http://richarddawkins.net/archive/all_content/latest By the way, I am not arguing from a Christian perspective. I hope my posts convey an equal scrutiny of all religions.
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